Notable open & development class racers....

[Crag Cay]

I think I've already made some of these comments about the IACC boats in another thread. But some are relevant again here.

The America's Cup is the 'bastard child' of two argumentative parents. One wants innovation and development and the other close match racing and sailing skill. At the moment, all the designs have converged to such a degree that it will be a real sailors' show-down this summer. But will the general public care ? And although the main antagonists are sailing virtual one-designs, there is still an enormous development cost to anyone else who wants to join in the fun. As a result, I think loads of people find it hard to identify with any of the teams.

So whoever wins this time needs to declare the next contest 'one design', and let all the challenges have a copy of their winning design. At least this way, the public's interest would be boosted by having more countries represented in the competition. In addition, all the entries would fund a joint development project that would run separate from the AC competition. This would be an open source collaborative program and when they had managed to make the new design say, two (?) percent 'better', that would then be the design used as the one design for the next defence. This would stop the 'one designs' becoming dated, but would open up the competition to radically more teams.

Then if increased participation didn't grab the general publics attention, the close match racing will have to be subverted in favour of spectacle and radical innovation. The venue and date of the event would be fixed with races on certain days, come what may. I would favour the Isles of Scilly in September, but the Caribbean in full trades, or Freemantle when the Doctor is at home, would also do. The boats would be no holds barred, 120ft monohull's, racing on courses the public understands (round the island, or point to point, etc).

As to some of the other matters, I must say I have noticed a very 'rose tinted' view, both here and in other threads, about sailing in by gone years: Visions of highly skilled sailors romping in perfect safety across the seas in wholesome and seaworthy craft. I'm not sure everything was so perfect. My Grandfather told me plenty of horror stories about getting America's Cup challengers over the Atlantic before the First World War. The rules said all boats had to arrive on their 'own bottom', which was easy if you were starting from City Island, NY. But everyone else had to 'nurse' these behemoths over the ocean closely escorted by a ship which would rotate the crews on and off as just being on these boats was so unpleasant. One challenger lost contact with its escort, and the men of Tollesbury became local heroes as they actually managed to get this 'thing' across the Atlantic to New York without disaster. Those AC boats were designed and built at the 'cutting edge' with no more (or less) regard to 'seaworthiness' than designs of today.

I think the whole 'traditional sail' nostalgia industry has rather coloured our perspective. I have no interest in returning to the ocean sailing and racing days of the sixties and seventies. In the mid sixties, I remember a good third of our fleet in a Mediterranean race were dismasted and with no engines or radios, crews were adrift for days as the RAF scoured thousands of square miles looking for survivors. When I look back, I only see no life lines, leaks, crappy bilge pumps, sails ripping, constantly cold, dripping decks, wet bedding, no electrics and more often than not, being lost (to some degree at least). Perhaps because of these 'delights', there were in fact very few boats around in comparison to today. But I would have to be convinced that the accidents per mile sailed were any less.

[Paul B]

Originally Posted by Crag Cay

As to some of the other matters, I must say I have noticed a very 'rose tinted' view, both here and in other threads, about sailing in by gone years: Visions of highly skilled sailors romping in perfect safety across the seas in wholesome and seaworthy craft.

I couldn't agree more.

The truth is EVERY American boat built as a J Class was scrapped in short order. They were not built for the long haul. In fact one of them (Yankee?) was initially so light in the frames that a team with sledgehammers would be pounding away after each tack to prevent buckling in some areas.

Boat Year Built Scrapped
Enterprise '30 '35
Whirlwind '30 '35
Yankee '30 '41
Weetamoe '30 '37
Rainbow '34 '40
Ranger '37 '41

Average 6 years build to scrap, and it was actually worse than that. Ranger sailed in '37, was hauled by the end of the year, and never launched again. Only Yankee ever crossed the Atlantic.


Don't get me wrong. I like fast boats. I've loved the Centomiglia Race and the Classe Libera boats sailing there since I was a kid. My own boat is a smaller version of one of those monsters. I loved the old F40 tris. The old unlimited 18 footers were pure excitement. I think the Volvo Extreme 40s are incredible. C Class cats are very cool. The wingmasted ACup Cat was perhaps the greatest boat I've ever seen. The Volvo 70s are exciting to see in 30 knots on a broad reach. I could go on.

But none of these would be the right boat for the type of match racing we have in the AC.

Originally Posted by Paul B

You try to get people to buy into your design ideas for foilers, after your "monofoiler" wouldn't fly?

Wrong-it DID fly.....

Originally Posted by Vega

I was not expressing, my personal opinion, only Juan and Farr opinions, but I think that the America Class should be the F1 of the seas. Sure, they should be competitive in equal terms, but they should be the ultimate in boat speed, performance and technology, and they are not (even if they cost as such).

The thing that pisses me more is the incapacity of those big boats to race with more than 30kt of wind. I find that quite ridiculous. Older ones could cross-oceans. These ones can’t take a blow.

I agree with you 100% ,Vega. It is too bad that the AC boats no longer represent the pinnacle of technology; they should and that means movable ballast and some other technologies should be allowed giving a much wider range to design posibilities.There might actually be something to see behind a skirt then.....

[Paul B]

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

Wrong-it DID fly.....

Sure it did. Dreams don't count. Somehow this "fact" seems to change, depending on when you post about it.

You are so embarassed by your failure you can't seem to simply answer: When, Where, Amplitude, Duration.

[Paul B]

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

I agree with you 100% ,Vega. It is too bad that the AC boats no longer represent the pinnacle of technology; they should and that means movable ballast and some other technologies should be allowed giving a much wider range to design posibilities.There might actually be something to see behind a skirt then.....

OK, let's also have giant versions of C Class cats allowed as well. That would be much higher tech than any canter, far faster too.

Might not make for great match racing though.

Originally Posted by Paul B

Sure it did. Dreams don't count. Somehow this "fact" seems to change, depending on when you post about it.

You are so embarassed by your failure you can't seem to simply answer: When, Where, Amplitude, Duration.

"Amplitude"??? Gee, Paul B,in addition to missing what I've written about this you've even invented a new "Hydrofoil Technology " word. Since I always want to learn could you define the word as it applies to hydrofoils, please?

[CT 249]

Originally Posted by Vega

F1 are the most technologically advanced race car series.

I don’t think we can say the same of the Class America, in what regards to boats, except in costs.

I no longer buy "Racecar Engineering" magazine, but when I did a few years ago, the F1 cars were notable for a LACK of technology in many areas; no turbos, no driver aids, limits on ground effect, no traction control, limits on wing area. And of course the engines are tiny.

I'm not sure whether the AC boats ever represented the leading edge of technology in a wide variety of areas. Enterprise was called "the mechanical ship", but even at the time Uffa Fox was pointing out that smaller boats actually lead most developments; "the larger classes take years to adopt the more highly developed rigs of the smaller classes...the keenest and most popular small class will always be the leaders in thought, with the larger classes following in its footsteps according to size".

Uffa said the same thing about sailing techniques and he noted how the waterline of the smaller Metre boats increased to the maximum well before that trend spread to the Js where it proved to succeed once again.

As said before, many of the big cutters and the J Class could sail the Atlantic, but under different rigs. There was a great deal of criticism about the fragility of the J Class rigs in the '30s; "Weak maidenly rigs" was the term Uffa Fox used. "The weakness of their rigs is a source of great worry and concern to their owners throughout the season's racing" he noted. Uffa and Sherman Hoyt wrote about the time Ranger lost her new mast before it even had sails hoisted on it!

It was also pointed out that the earlier gaff boats of the Big Class broke many topmasts. Even back then people were saying "it was better in the old days!"

Having said that, the 12 Metres were pretty good as far as allowing a swift conversion to a cruiser or offshore racer that was some use. It does seem a pity the IACC hulls are not more suitable for some other use.

[Paul B]

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

"Amplitude"??? Gee, Paul B,in addition to missing what I've written about this you've even invented a new "Hydrofoil Technology " word. Since I always want to learn could you define the word as it applies to hydrofoils, please?

Nice to see you are still too shamed to answer the simple questions.

Perhaps some study of your native language is in order if you don't understand the meaning of amplitude from the context.

[Vega]

Originally Posted by Paul B

You are so embarassed by your failure you can't seem to simply answer: When, Where, Amplitude, Duration.

Sorry but I have to say that I find your attitude towards Doug quite disagreeable and uncompressible.

To achieve something one needs to try and it is normal to fail not one, but several times to achieve something. The only ones that never achieve anything are the ones that never fail, because they never tried.

There is no need to be desagreable

[Vega]

Originally Posted by Crag Cay

As to some of the other matters, I must say I have noticed a very 'rose tinted' view, both here and in other threads, about sailing in by gone years: Visions of highly skilled sailors romping in perfect safety across the seas in wholesome and seaworthy craft. I'm not sure everything was so perfect.

I hope you are not talking about me. The only thing I want is spectacular and fast boats. Boats that can blast at more than 30k in the weather conditions that prevent the class America boats to race, and boats that in more clement conditions would be a lot faster then the actual boats. Of course I want close competition, but this event should be spectacular and speed is the essence of racing.
For many years, the fastest boats raced this event. It is not so today, and I think it should be again.

[Paul B]

Originally Posted by CT 249

I no longer buy "Racecar Engineering" magazine, but when I did a few years ago, the F1 cars were notable for a LACK of technology in many areas; no turbos, no driver aids, limits on ground effect, no traction control, limits on wing area. And of course the engines are tiny..

RCE was a great publication. I subscribed from the beginning for about 7 years. Sadly I began to miss as many issues as I received at the same time the cost was increasing by half again, so I decided so much cost for so few actual delivered issues wasn't worth it anymore.

Originally Posted by CT 249

I'm not sure whether the AC boats ever represented the leading edge of technology in a wide variety of areas. .

There has been a good deal of tech that has been brought along into big boats by the AC, if not actually first used there. It has given the funding for some design tools that would not otherwise have been funded. For that we owe the AC.

Originally Posted by CT 249

As said before, many of the big cutters and the J Class could sail the Atlantic, but under different rigs. .

Maybe the US Js could sail the Atlantic, but they didn't, the exception being Yankee. Of course there were other "Js", mostly re-worked 23 metre designs, but they were often more fragile than the boats built as Js. I doubt many of them crossed either.

Originally Posted by CT 249

Having said that, the 12 Metres were pretty good as far as allowing a swift conversion to a cruiser or offshore racer that was some use. It does seem a pity the IACC hulls are not more suitable for some other use.

Other than American Eagle I'm not sure there were too many other modern 12s converted to cruising or offshore racing. Newsboy used to race out here, with no engine, mostly in local races. The Ensenada race was probably the most Offshore she went. I doubt any 12 since '67 has been converted.

[Paul B]

Originally Posted by Vega

Sorry but I have to say that I find your attitude towards Doug quite disagreeable and uncompressible.

To achieve something one needs to try and it is normal to fail not one, but several times to achieve something. The only ones that never achieve anything are the ones that never fail, because they never tried.

There is no need to be desagreable

Generally people learn more from failure than they do from success.

Doug refuses to answer the most basic questions about his failed experiment. His ego can't let him admit the failure. If he would be forthright maybe someone would learn something from his effort.

While AC development in the past has produced notable boats like Australia II and others I think the rule has simply gotten too close to a one design -and for the America's Cup that probably isn't going to work.
No one can deny the profound on-going effect movable ballast is having on big monohull speed. Not just big boats -as a matter of fact-little boats like the Backman 21,29 and Bethwaites 26 footer and ,of course, mini's-all benefitting from the same technology. That this technology is banned from the AC is a damn shame-it relegates the AC boats to another era.
The use of movable ballast and other technologies such as foil assist(already used on big multies) could reinvigorate the Cup. And the funding these technologies would get thru the AC could hasten the availability of the technology everywhere else-which, I'd bet, would be good for sailing.

[CT 249]

Originally Posted by Paul B

RCE was a great publication. I subscribed from the beginning for about 7 years. Sadly I began to miss as many issues as I received at the same time the cost was increasing by half again, so I decided so much cost for so few actual delivered issues wasn't worth it anymore.



There has been a good deal of tech that has been brought along into big boats by the AC, if not actually first used there. It has given the funding for some design tools that would not otherwise have been funded. For that we owe the AC.


Maybe the US Js could sail the Atlantic, but they didn't, the exception being Yankee. Of course there were other "Js", mostly re-worked 23 metre designs, but they were often more fragile than the boats built as Js. I doubt many of them crossed either.


Other than American Eagle I'm not sure there were too many other modern 12s converted to cruising or offshore racing. Newsboy used to race out here, with no engine, mostly in local races. The Ensenada race was probably the most Offshore she went. I doubt any 12 since '67 has been converted.

Re AC tech;
Sure, there has been quite a bit of tech ('specially in sails and electronics, mebbe winches) developed from the AC, but looking at the totality of sailing tech (from planing hulls to assymetric spinnakers and squaretop sails and bulb keels and spinnakers and carbon construction etc etc etc, I'm not sure that it has been the MAIN driving force as has sometimes been said.

Re J Class/23m; 23s were built to Lloyds like the Js. Nyria was built to Lloyds as early as 1906 and Shamrock IV was the last non-Lloyds Big Class boat. Cambria and Candida were turned into cruisers and one or both survive.

Re 12 Metres offshore;

There's been a fair few that have sailed offshore. Off the top of my head.......

Endless Summer (Dame Pattie) was converted and raced on the Great Lakes under cat 2, I'm99% sure. Gretel 1 was converted to Cat 1 1974 or 75 and did several Hobarts and many other races (2nd in '80 Hobart). Nefertiti was converted and cruised and raced around the world, including getting 5th in that 1980 Hobart. Evaine (I think) cruised across the Atlantic and around the Med in the '70s. Sceptre raced Cat 2 or 3 around Scotland through the '80s/90s. Chancegger (French trialhorse '70s) cruised through Australia some time ago. I think France II was converted. Richard Matthews (Oyster Yachts) converted an '80s 12 for UK offshore racing and did the Fastnet, I think. Sverige ('77) was converted to Cat 2.


Re "
For many years, the fastest boats raced this event. It is not so today".

Equally, there were years when the AC was NOT raced in the boats that were significantly quicker, or even in boats that were significantly slower. America herself was slower than Maria in pre-AC testing. During the cutter era (before J Class) the AC boats were not significantly faster than the Big Class (witness the Brittania/Valkyrie/Satanita duels before Valkyrie went to the AC) and the big schooners were often quicker (check Westward's performance in some conditions in later years when the death of the schooner class put her against the Big Class). As late as the J era, there wasn't a huge difference between the AC challengers and the rest of the Big Class (I have a copy of the ratings of the day).

Through most of the 12 Metre era, of course, the AC boats were smaller and slower than a maxi or even a boat like Sirius, the M Class. Even by the '70s, a boat like Kialoa III was quicker than a 12 Metre. Gretel II used to join in some maxi races in the '70s and '80s in full 12 Metre racing trim and got beaten easily, even on harbour courses.