Notable open & development class racers....

[Vega]

Originally Posted by DGreenwood

The open class boats are not cruising boats except in a most rudimentary way. As a platform to develop hull form, rig efficiency, foil efficiency, leaner structures, and testing the reliability of equipment and electronics, they are fantastic.

No, but there are some cruiser boats that have incorporated a lot of those technologies and hull shapes. Not big production, but beautiful boats and in some cases, not absurdly expensive


http://www.finot.com/general/index_ang.htm

Click on cruising boats and take a look to these Boats:

Cigale (these are the affordable)

Albatros 50

ADP 50-52

[DGreenwood]

Believe me Vega, I do advacate the developement of more agile cruising boats. (more on that in more appropriate thread.)
The advancements that come from the open classes has and will continue to make great changes in the general idea of what ocean sailing is about. Testament to this the fact that the Class 40 is so fast and is still feasable as a simple cruiser.
It is not uncommon to hear comments to the effect that the Open 60s are flighty unwieldy thouroghbreds that contribute nothing to the REAL world of sailing...of course nothing could be further from the truth.

My point was more that an Open 60 would not be very adaptable to most peoples idea of cruising. I could live on one quite happily but I am a masochist.

[Crag Cay]

My point was more that an Open 60 would not be very adaptable to most peoples idea of cruising. I could live on one quite happily but I am a masochist.

I think if you look back through the sailing magasines over the years, you will find that someone said exactly the same thing about every cutting edge design at almost every moment in history.

Bermudan, seperate keels and rudder, stainless steel rigging, sloop rig have all be slammed for their irrelevence to the 'real cruising world'. I wonder if I will live long enough to see a canting keel on my cruising boat?

[DGreenwood]

The canting keel is much closer to being on semiproduction boats than people think. The lifting bulb keel was an unusual device until recently. Now I am seeing them on cruising boats.
The problem with most purely performance oriented developments is that most cruisers don't have a clue what to do with them. As Robert Perry so bluntly put it "cruisers are hacks". Of course there are many exceptions.

If the newly adapted technology buys the owner some bragging rights then it has a chance to see the crossover. Carbon masts which so many were so sure were never ever going to be common---are in fact. One that didn't do so well was the wing keel.
Guessing, I would say the canting keel will show up...and then fade out. The typical weekend dude will not a) know how to use it, b) maintain the damn thing the way it must be. (look how many centerboards jam and fall clear off every year from lack of maintainence.)
They are here to stay in the racing world, that is, until a better way is found.

I know, I know...multihulls are the way of the enlightened...I don't want to hear it!!

[Guillermo]

Originally Posted by DGreenwood

Testament to this the fact that the Class 40 is so fast and is still feasable as a simple cruiser.

Off topic here, but may I say I do not agree?
For the time being that's only wishful thinking from some designers. Time will tell when some dozens or hundreds of those have been sailing around for enough time and faced all kind of conditions with cruising crews, not racing ones. And you have to realize the proposed cruising versions feature smaller sail areas.
Anyhow I wouldn't like at at all to be forced to heave to in one of those when in an storm. The only defence these boats have is to speed away (those keels are not very effective at slow speeds). But what will happen if by any reason you cannot do that?

[Vega]

Originally Posted by Guillermo

Off topic here, but may I say I do not agree?
For the time being that's only wishful thinking from some designers. Time will tell when some dozens or hundreds of those have been sailing around for enough time and faced all kind of conditions with cruising crews, not racing ones. And you have to realize the proposed cruising versions feature smaller sail areas.

What racing crews Guillermo? These boats are Solo raced. Even an average cruising crew will be better than a Solo sailor (regarding safety)), no matter how good he is (remember that he sleeps at least 4 hours, and that the boat is on auto-pilot).

What wishful thinking? Some of these boats existed as cruising boats before the 40class was created, and where quite popular (it was because they were popular and fast that the new class was born).

The cruising versions have small sails simply because they have a smaller righting moment. The 3m draft (bulb) is reduced to 2m.

There is at least one model that is the same boat, with the same rig (cruising and racing), it has a lifting keel.

This type of fast cruising boats is so popular in France that the A 35 (the small brother of the A 40, a class40 boat) was chosen as Boat of the Year by Voile-Magazine. The choice was made by the readers (85 of them) that test sailed 26 boats of all types, from the new Oceanis 50, passing by the Nordship 40 till the RM880.

Originally Posted by Guillermo

Anyhow I wouldn't like at at all to be forced to heave to in one of those when in an storm. The only defence these boats have is to speed away (those keels are not very effective at slow speeds). But what will happen if by any reason you cannot do that?

Do you know how Phil Sharp has won the race? While all the other skippers where running away from a big storm, he chose to sail towards it. With 70k of wind he sailed the storm (for 3 days) and with those winds he gained an advantage that has permitted him to win the race.
I give you that the guy has big balls, but if he could sail alone a 70ft storm (sometimes sleeping) why should it be a problem for a normal crew? Why do you want to heave in a boat that can sail a storm, even solo?

Regards

[Vega]

Originally Posted by DGreenwood

The lifting bulb keel was an unusual device until recently. Now I am seeing them on cruising boats.
.....(look how many centerboards jam and fall clear off every year from lack of maintainence.)

DGreenwood, I need some information regarding lifting bulb keels and maintenance.

I am redesigning a boat (if I am lucky, my next boat) that will have a lifting bulb keel and water ballasts.

I know very little about the annual maintenance needed on a lifting keel.

I have asked for information on another thread, but I got no reply. Can you help?


Lifting Keel

[DGreenwood]

Sometimes Vega I get the distinct impression that you read too fast. I recognise the fault because I am guilty of it.
I was refering to canting keels when I was talking about the probability of poor care by theoretical owners.

However I can head you towards some folks that have been fooling with lifting keels.
I just looked at a Reichel-Pugh built at Lyman Morse in Maine that had a lifting keel. It was an internal ram-very simple. Another one is Icon---designed by Robert Perry. Gun drilled ram into the top of the keel. Has been used pretty extensively now. Bob Perry is a likely candidate for such questions. He seems to keep up with what is going on with his designs and is usually very freindly to questions. I would call or write him about Icon.
I think our often contributor and in house engineer Eric Sponberg has designed at least one lifting keel. He woud be a good one to ask. He seems always willing to share his experience and I think Bagatelle has been sailing around a while now. Try him.
Meanwhile I will dig through the dusty files that is my brain and try to remember more I have seen.

[Guillermo]

Originally Posted by Vega

Some of these boats existed as cruising boats before the 40class was created, and where quite popular.

Would you please show me an example of those cruising boats with Class 40's hull forms, keels and rigs?

Originally Posted by Vega

The cruising versions have small sails simply because they have a smaller righting moment.

Would you please post their comparative RM or GZ curves to support your assertion?

Originally Posted by Vega

Why do you want to heave in a boat that can sail a storm, even solo?

OK, Paulo. You win. Go out there and cruise that way by yourself.

[Vega]

Originally Posted by Guillermo

Would you please show me an example of those cruising boats with Class 40's hull forms, keels and rigs?

What I have said was:

“Some of these boats existed as cruising boats before the 40class was created, and where quite popular…”

The hulls were the same. For the racing version, only the draft was increased thus making possible an increase in the size of the sail area. The mast is the same.
The actual cruising versions are still the same model.

The first one was the A4O, and that boat was elected in France boat of the year 2004.
The Pogo 40 appeared in 2005, after several similar but smaller boats: The Pogo 6.5 (1995), the Pogo 8.5 (1999).

The first 40class race was the 2006 “La route du Rhum”.

Originally Posted by Guillermo

Would you please post their comparative RM or GZ curves to support your assertion?

Do I have to? Please Guillermo:

The Pogo cruising version has a displacement of 5300kg, a water ballast of 2x750L, a 2.2 Draft and a bulb with 1.8T
The Racing version has a displacement of 4800kg , a water ballast of 2x750L, a 3.0 Draft and a bulb with 1.8T

Don’t you think that a 1.8T bulb, 0.8M lower will have a big effect on the Max RM of the boat?

Originally Posted by Guillermo

OK, Paulo. You win. Go out there and cruise that way by yourself.

I like to win, but only when racing . Nobody in his right mind will cruise in a storm, but that is the way that modern boats should endure a storm…sailing. It’s no longer time to be closed inside the boat praying

[Guillermo]

Originally Posted by Vega

It’s no longer time to be closed inside the boat praying

Not praying but having a (relative) rest when you can do nothing else or when you are too tired. A boat able to safely hove to is a more seaworthy and safer boat than one that cannot.

Originally Posted by Vega

The Pogo cruising version has a displacement of 5300kg, a water ballast of 2x750L, a 2.2 Draft and a bulb with 1.8T
The Racing version has a displacement of 4800kg , a water ballast of 2x750L, a 3.0 Draft and a bulb with 1.8T

So we cannot say Class 40s are cruisers, but the down-canvassed derivations from them. Even though, that's not my idea of a proper cruising sailboat. I'll analize the Pogo and comment at the STIX thread (not to keep on with this discussion here). In the mean time you'll find there a post with the type I like....

(By the way: I used to race a lot when younger and won some trophys as skipper. Even a national championship. But I put an end to that when I realized I was trying to be ludicruosly competitive even at weekends . My God, working days are more that enough to that end! )

Originally Posted by Vega

Do I have to? Please Guillermo...

It would be nice. Deeper bulb calls for a lower CDG, so increasing RAs certainly, but lower Disp calls for lower RMs on its side. Interesting to see how this two effects superimpose.

Originally Posted by Vega

The hulls were the same. For the racing version, only the draft was increased thus making possible an increase in the size of the sail area. The mast is the same

I insist in you posting an example (with images) please, for me to precisely realize what are you talking about. Thanks in advance.

Cheers

[Vega]

The example: the Pogo racing and the cruising version.

Same hull, same mast, different but interchangeable draft. If you want to race the boat, you can even buy the racing lighter version, cruise it like that, or mount the small draft keel, change for a set of small area cruising sails (compensating the smaller RM) and there you go, with your family.

Guillermo as you have said “Off topic here”, so I will not continue this “dialogue”.

Regards

[Vega]

Back on topic:

Have you heard about the “Oceanic One” monotype for the “Solo Ocean”2009 race?

The race has been presented this year in the French Sailing Federation.

The idea is a monotype around the world race in a kind of super class40 (regarding costs).

The boat will have 52ft and is being designed by Groupe Finot, incorporating all the Open 60 technology.

Why this concept? Costs! With this boat it would be possible to make a race like the “Veloux 5 Oceans” with about 20% of the budget, in a boat that is not much slower.

The full budget will be around 500 000 euros for each racer.

And of course, if everybody races the same boat, chances to win will also be the same.

I bet that we will have in that one most of the Guys that are now running in the 40class. I bet that some of them are already dreaming with that boat


“The Solo-Oceans, … is the first single-handed round the world race in which international skippers are guaranteed to compete on an equal footing on the Oceanic One Design monohull, sixteen-metre high-tech one-design monohulls, all strictly identical to one another: hull, equipment and sails.
The Solo-Oceans also guarantees a total control of entry and running costs, enabling small enterprises as well as big companies to get involved in this round the world-race on an equal footing with reasonable budgets.
The Solo-Oceans is dreamed up, organized, broadcasted and developed by the SailingOne company that has therefore created the Oceanic One Design monohull, designed by the Finot-Conq Group in consultation with Michel Desjoyeaux (skipper of Géant). SailingOne will produce, market and control its perfect one-design status and its evolution. This complete cost control is in the favour of firms, especially at a time where inflation is dashing as far as monohull single-handed round the world races are concerned.
The Solo-Oceans is the first oceanic race, that contractually guarantees the same minimum media exposure to each competing team - in addition to the usual editorial media coverage and sports news.
The Solo-Oceans and its Oceanic One Design monohull fits into the category of Oceanic Single-Handed Races. It will cost a sponsor about 500,000 € exclusive of tax per season, including a guaranteed media exposure. … This seducing proposition is meant to render sailing more attractive to firms and regional and local authorities that might have been put off, until now, by the inflation of the one-offs budgets.”

http://www.finot.com/index.htm
http://www.soloceans.com/en/news/1/l...lo-oceans.html
http://www.soloceans.com/en/budget/

[DGreenwood]

Just a fantastic concept. I fear there is much competition right now with new and existing classes and races.
It will be interesting to see if this takes off.

[Stephen Ditmore]

Guillermo:

I need to study up on STIX and the Class 40 rule before I comment on the technical questions you raise, but I had a personal experience 20 years ago that makes me skeptical of heavy displacement boats' claim to be more comfortable in waves.

The one time I've visited Hawaii I sailed as a guest on board a thirty-something cruiser.... perhaps a Pearson, in a regatta. We were not expecting to be competitive, but in the steep Hawaiian swell not far from prime surfing areas our boat pitched horribly, and couldn't seem to make headway at all. By contrast, the two Wylie Wabbits competing zipped around the course like there was nothing to it, upwind and down, handling the waves with aplomb. We finished the regatta last, nauseous, and impressed with the small ULDBs.
http://www.wyliewabbit.org/specs.htm

I don't have enough experience with the extreme beam light displacement types to know how they handle waves, but I join Steve & Linda Dashew (experienced cruisers) in thinking the narrower ULDBs do very nicely.

Moving on: what I think WOULD be on-topic in this thread is a comparison of Mini 6.5 designs informed by actual race results. The 6.5s have been around long enough that we should be able to get an idea which boats have shown themselves to be better, and why.