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  #121  
Old 04-10-2012, 04:55 PM
Paul B Paul B is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yobarnacle View Post
I know your original concept was anything goes in a $300 budget!

I suspect you'll end up with a lot of styrofoam sail boards with pvc masts and visqueen sails.
I think this is a good prediction.

To minimize this, and keep the boats "practical" (without traps, sliding seats, droop hiking, etc) you can simply include a rule that says no part of the body below the hips may extend outboard of the sheer.

Ditto the "cargo box".
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  #122  
Old 04-10-2012, 05:58 PM
pdwiley pdwiley is offline
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Originally Posted by CatBuilder View Post
Speaking to post #77, you know who really has a lot of skill doing that stuff? Brent Swain. He has been making all his components for many years. Though he got trashed on here, he deserves a lot of respect for making just about every component on his boat from scratch or scrap.
He got trashed here because he deserved to be trashed. While some of his ideas are good, his sheer contempt for anything that differed from his world view even in the face of patient explanations of engineering earnt him what he got.

It's a bit of a problem with the basic concept of this thread if you allow people to make stuff from scrap and don't, for example, include the cost of tooling. I could make some pretty nice fittings for almost nothing, as long as I was allowed to use my TIG welder, milling machine and lathe without penalty.

PDW
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  #123  
Old 04-10-2012, 08:06 PM
Petros Petros is offline
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If the rules limit hiking to just what can be done with toe straps and fixed boards within the box rule, I think it keeps the intent. by keeping the crew up right only, it puts more burden on the judges, complicates the event. limiting the equipment I think is simpler and it is easy to exclude it before the race.

Also, I have decided to recommend the cost limit be raised to $600, so it gives more flexibility. Consider that part of the intent is to stretch designers to make good performing sailboats with less costly materials, it is part of the design contest.

Styrofoam boards with a PVC mast will not hold up to a season of racing. I have seen attempts at PVC masts, they do not even hold up for one race! The mast is what drives the boat, if they want to win it has to take the driving force. That pretty much rules out everything but wood or metal at the cost limit.

I think having the 500 lb crew plus cargo weight would pretty much eliminate vary narrow hulls. Also, if the design of the course will emphasize good down wind and up wind speed, with reaches minimized, narrow hulls with hiking boards will not be as much as an advantage.

After watching some clips on foiler moths, I thought we might want to address the use of foils as well. They would be well suited perhaps to a larger class with a higher cost limit, but they do not appear very practical or safe in tight races. The 500 lb crew plus cargo rule might preclude their use anyway.

This is why a thought out set of rules will keep the event where we want it. Thanks again for your input.
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  #124  
Old 04-10-2012, 08:13 PM
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Doug Lord Doug Lord is offline
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Good news on the cost! Bad news to ban foils, in my opinion. Particularly foil assist like DSS which could be done very inexpensively. For full flying foiling you don't have to worry about it-the weight and cost prohibits it. Foil assist works regardless of the weight and shouldn't be banned since it is an increasingly important aspect of monohull design-and will just be drag if done wrong.......It would be a real shame to prohibit one of the areas seeing the most innovation in monohull design-rudder t-foils on I-14's and National 12's, curved lifting foils on Open 60's and DSS on many different boats. Foil assist is a key ingredient in current and future monohull performance design!
I thought I read in the first post that singlehanded sailing was ok? I'll check again...
Where did the 500lb crew come into the picture?? Thats extremely heavy for any 16' performance boat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Petros View Post
Races will be with two man crew or singled handed. To make sure the boats stay practical, an optional rule is all boats must have accommodations for large cooler sized box weighing 100 kg, some races will require the "cargo box" with cargo be in place.

Comments, ideas or suggestions?
I asked this question: (post90)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Lord View Post
--------------------------------------------------
Petros, I like the basic concept. Would it be legal to move the "cargo box" side to side? Would a sliding seat(plank) like on the International Canoe or Skate be legal? Would a canting mast be legal? Would simple foils like "plug-in" DSS foils be considered legal? They'd be easy and inexpensive to make. I'd like to think there was room for serious innovation w/o type forming the concept....

Pictures- Skate with twin sliding planks, Merlin dinghy with canting mast system-click on image:

And you answered: (post 95)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Petros View Post
Yep, all legal, as long as any appendages fits within the box rule. It is assumed the sail would be on the center line to qualify the class rule. so boom or jib, plus body parts, can be outside the box during sailing, I guess that would include the mast and a pivoting keel too.

The only condition is that the judges deem your invention as safe, though they are rather generous when it comes to questionable designs. On the current build/race contest they run on 4th of July, they find it most entertaining when up to half of the entrants sink during the race. A real crowd pleaser. Way more fun than watching a lot of identical boats go around markers.
??????
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  #125  
Old 04-10-2012, 08:21 PM
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Yobarnacle Yobarnacle is offline
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$600 of todays money would build. You might have to increase that annually to allow for inflation. As much money as the Fed is printing, inflation is a foregone conclusion.

Not trying to be a wet blanket. just raising aspects maybe not considered.

allowing foils will make it a young athletes sailboat, won't it? Can't imagine many father/son or dad/daughter boats where the dad weighs 230 lbs and has too shift weight fast to balance foils.

good luck
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  #126  
Old 04-10-2012, 10:05 PM
Paul B Paul B is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yobarnacle View Post
dad/daughter boats where the dad weighs 230 lbs and has too shift weight fast to balance foils.
If dad weighs 230 then the daughter will have to be at 270 to meet the 500 number mentioned earlier.
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  #127  
Old 04-10-2012, 10:16 PM
Paul B Paul B is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Petros View Post
If the rules limit hiking to just what can be done with toe straps and fixed boards within the box rule, I think it keeps the intent. by keeping the crew up right only, it puts more burden on the judges, complicates the event.
If you allow toe straps (and therefore straight leg hiking or possibly a modified droop hike) then the level of athleticism will go a long way toward defining the winner.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Petros View Post
Styrofoam boards with a PVC mast will not hold up to a season of racing. I have seen attempts at PVC masts, they do not even hold up for one race! The mast is what drives the boat, if they want to win it has to take the driving force. That pretty much rules out everything but wood or metal at the cost limit.
Well maybe not pure PVC, but PVC sheathed with epoxy/glass (both available at hardware stores) could be enough for this, or better yet aluminum tubing (also available at hardware stores).
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  #128  
Old 04-10-2012, 10:26 PM
Petros Petros is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yobarnacle View Post
$600 of todays money would build. You might have to increase that annually to allow for inflation. As much money as the Fed is printing, inflation is a foregone conclusion.

Not trying to be a wet blanket. just raising aspects maybe not considered
Actually I already considered it, we have to make it fair from one year to the next too. sometimes prices of wood can vary a lot from one year to the next. Or even from one region to the next.

I thought the rules committee would have an index of typical building materials that adds up to $600; like 10 sheets of ac plywood, plus a gallon jug of Tightbond 3, plus 2 lbs of stainless deck screws, 7 yards of tyvek, etc. priced from an average of big box store prices. Than every year by Jan 31 the price limit for that year would be set, along with any rule changes. This way there would be time to plan for that years building season. This same list of supplies can also be used to adjust the materials limit locally if desired.
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  #129  
Old 04-10-2012, 10:33 PM
Petros Petros is offline
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Originally Posted by Paul B View Post
If dad weighs 230 then the daughter will have to be at 270 to meet the 500 number mentioned earlier.
don't be silly. The rule is crew plus cargo, so a light crew of two 95 lb sailors would have to carry 310 lbs of ballast. My original idea was all boats carry 100kg (220 lbs) of cargo (sand bags in a Coleman cooler-"cargo box"). Than it occurred to me that it would a better test of the design of the boat if all carried the same amount of weight, hence crew plus cargo is 500 lbs, all boats would be more or less equal. It would also put a crew in the 200-250 lb range (each) not at such a disadvantage. They have to weight-in at registration, and pick up their sand bags.
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  #130  
Old 04-10-2012, 11:31 PM
Paul B Paul B is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Petros View Post
They have to weight-in at registration, and pick up their sand bags.
Sand bags don't hike. As soon as the boats are powered up the heavier crew will have an advantage, even if the weight of crew+bags is equal.

In light air the light crew will have no advantage.
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  #131  
Old 04-10-2012, 11:52 PM
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Yobarnacle Yobarnacle is offline
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As to daughters weighing 270lbs, I see you've met my daughter! I hope your intentions are honorable young man. Don't break her heart! She still weeps over the graves of her 3 previous faithless suitors!
She is state womens skeet champion.
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  #132  
Old 04-11-2012, 12:23 AM
Paul B Paul B is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yobarnacle View Post
As to daughters weighing 270lbs, I see you've met my daughter!
She must have lost weight since I last saw her.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Yobarnacle View Post
She is state womens skeet champion.
Skeet is a game of little skill. Trap is a much greater challenge, especially those straight away shots.

If she really wanted to impress she would be shooting trap with a Ruger .22
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  #133  
Old 04-11-2012, 12:34 AM
cor cor is offline
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I used to host an event that had the same concept, inexpensive boats built with readily availble materials that allowed people to experiment with intersting designs.

The way that I kept the playing field even and kept cost down was to specify the type and quanity of the building materials. The material list was something like 2 sheets of 1/4" ply, half a sheet of 3/4" ply, so many 2x4s, etc. Everyone got the same pile of material to start with and you could build any kind of boat you wanted. We ended up with a great variety of boats, everything from basic skiffs to cats to wooden wind surfers.

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  #134  
Old 04-11-2012, 12:49 AM
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Yobarnacle Yobarnacle is offline
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Originally Posted by cor View Post
I used to host an event that had the same concept, inexpensive boats built with readily availble materials that allowed people to experiment with intersting designs.

The way that I kept the playing field even and kept cost down was to specify the type and quanity of the building materials. The material list was something like 2 sheets of 1/4" ply, half a sheet of 3/4" ply, so many 2x4s, etc. Everyone got the same pile of material to start with and you could build any kind of boat you wanted. We ended up with a great variety of boats, everything from basic skiffs to cats to wooden wind surfers.

C.O.
http://whatsintheshop.blogspot.com/
were sails provided? or did they make those also?

It occurs to me, if you had a particular size , shape, sail all had to use, you could have them bulk made, to save cost.

It could still be up to skippers, where to step spars and types. A triangular sail could be sloop, cat, lateen, or staysail hung from a bipod mast. Maybe a few more variations. Balanced lug sail,....

Also, while the boats would have little market value, everybody preferring a custom personal design, if the sails were one design, they could be sold, and some of the investment re-couped when somebody quit the class.
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  #135  
Old 04-11-2012, 01:01 AM
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Yobarnacle Yobarnacle is offline
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Originally Posted by Paul B View Post
She must have lost weight since I last saw her.




Skeet is a game of little skill. Trap is a much greater challenge, especially those straight away shots.

If she really wanted to impress she would be shooting trap with a Ruger .22
Actually all three of my daughters are lovely.
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