Boat Design Forums  |  Boat Design Directory  |  Boat Design Gallery  |  Boat Design Book Store  |  Thanks to Our Site Sponsors

Go Back   Boat Design Forums > Design > Sailboats

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #91  
Old 04-06-2012, 03:01 PM
Yobarnacle's Avatar
Yobarnacle Yobarnacle is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Rep: 851 Posts: 1,634
Location: Mexico, Florida
for KISS, the Optimist Pram
__________________
:D "The Titanic was the finest ship afloat, ten minutes before it encountered Reality." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3BJl5Zy7HQ
Reply With Quote
  #92  
Old 04-06-2012, 03:07 PM
CatBuilder CatBuilder is offline
Previous Member
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Petros View Post
Catbuilder,

I did a search but I could not find any details of the kind of fittings that Brent Swain made, or any of his other work. Do you have any links to pictures or descriptions of his work?

Sounds like exactly the kind of creativity that I am trying to encourage with this contest. I like the guy already and I never even heard of him.
He makes...

*cleats
*windlasses
*all hardware
*all rigging
*internal systems, such as composting head

etc...

He's a steel boat guy and he was fairly well trashed on this forum, but he's actually a decent guy, if a bit eccentric. He carries a welder hooked up to his diesel on his boat and just welds up anything and everything. So... may not be applicable to this type of craft (too heavy), but he has many interesting ideas. He sells a book with plans for all of the hardware he has made/designed.

I have no affiliation with the guy or his book sales, but he's been doing that kind of thing for at least 20-30 years now.

He's the Origami steel boat guy.
Reply With Quote
  #93  
Old 04-06-2012, 03:17 PM
Yobarnacle's Avatar
Yobarnacle Yobarnacle is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Rep: 851 Posts: 1,634
Location: Mexico, Florida
is this the fellow?

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/
__________________
:D "The Titanic was the finest ship afloat, ten minutes before it encountered Reality." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3BJl5Zy7HQ
Reply With Quote
  #94  
Old 04-06-2012, 04:21 PM
Petros Petros is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Rep: 1593 Posts: 2,938
Location: Arlington, WA-USA
I found the web site with his origami steel yachts, but no pictures of his home made fixtures and fittings. I saw the book he sells on them, I just wanted to see what they look like.

Actually I very much like the concept of his hull construction technique, could even be used with plywood on much smaller hulls. Being in a steel hull just seems to un-yacht to me, more like a freighter. But if you are going steel, his methods has much to offer.

There is no end to the fancy and attractive rigging devices you can hang on a boat, most of them never even existed just a few generations ago, but now every one seems to think you need to buy them. With a little thought, usually you can find other ways to accomplish the same thing without the hardware, or with a simpler homemade solution. That is the kind of thing I hope this contest will promote.
Reply With Quote
  #95  
Old 04-06-2012, 04:36 PM
Petros Petros is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Rep: 1593 Posts: 2,938
Location: Arlington, WA-USA
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Lord View Post
--------------------------------------------------
Petros, I like the basic concept. Would it be legal to move the "cargo box" side to side? Would a sliding seat(plank) like on the International Canoe or Skate be legal? Would a canting mast be legal? Would simple foils like "plug-in" DSS foils be considered legal? They'd be easy and inexpensive to make. I'd like to think there was room for serious innovation w/o type forming the concept..
Yep, all legal, as long as any appendages fits within the box rule. It is assumed the sail would be on the center line to qualify the class rule. so boom or jib, plus body parts, can be outside the box during sailing, I guess that would include the mast and a pivoting keel too.

The only condition is that the judges deem your invention as safe, though they are rather generous when it comes to questionable designs. On the current build/race contest they run on 4th of July, they find it most entertaining when up to half of the entrants sink during the race. A real crowd pleaser. Way more fun than watching a lot of identical boats go around markers.
Reply With Quote
  #96  
Old 04-06-2012, 04:44 PM
Doug Lord's Avatar
Doug Lord Doug Lord is offline
Flight Ready
 
Join Date: May 2009
Rep: 1362 Posts: 13,706
Location: Cocoa Beach, Florida
Quote:
Originally Posted by Petros View Post
Yep, all legal, as long as any appendages fits within the box rule. It is assumed the sail would be on the center line to qualify the class rule. so boom or jib, plus body parts, can be outside the box during sailing, I guess that would include the mast and a pivoting keel too.

The only condition is that the judges deem your invention as safe, though they are rather generous when it comes to questionable designs. On the current build/race contest they run on 4th of July, they find it most entertaining when up to half of the entrants sink during the race. A real crowd pleaser. Way more fun than watching a lot of identical boats go around markers.
------------------------------
Thats great, glad to hear it!
__________________
yes, it is a Revolution
WOLF-daughter of fire arrow
Reply With Quote
  #97  
Old 04-06-2012, 07:11 PM
Petros Petros is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Rep: 1593 Posts: 2,938
Location: Arlington, WA-USA
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yobarnacle View Post
for KISS, the Optimist Pram
But that is boring and predictable
Reply With Quote
  #98  
Old 04-06-2012, 07:16 PM
Petros Petros is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Rep: 1593 Posts: 2,938
Location: Arlington, WA-USA
hey Doug,

how is a canting mast helpful on a light dingy, where the crews body is used to counter the heeling moment. I would think that keeping the mast vertical would result in the most amount of trust from the sail (this is conventional wisdom for sailing a dingy). Does it lift the boat out of the water to reduce drag? If so it would increase the induced drag of the sail, and reduced its ability to generate thrust.
Reply With Quote
  #99  
Old 04-06-2012, 07:31 PM
Doug Lord's Avatar
Doug Lord Doug Lord is offline
Flight Ready
 
Join Date: May 2009
Rep: 1362 Posts: 13,706
Location: Cocoa Beach, Florida
Quote:
Originally Posted by Petros View Post
hey Doug,

how is a canting mast helpful on a light dingy, where the crews body is used to counter the heeling moment. I would think that keeping the mast vertical would result in the most amount of trust from the sail (this is conventional wisdom for sailing a dingy). Does it lift the boat out of the water to reduce drag? If so it would increase the induced drag of the sail, and reduced its ability to generate thrust.
=================
Conceivably, it could be used to allow the boat to sail at an angle of heel upwind(if that worked best in the particular class) with the mast vertical.
I don't know much about the Merlin class so I'm not sure how advantageous it is there. In the moth class in a study by Bill Beaver(see pdf below) the mast angled to weather is a net gain when the boat is sailed with Veal Heel.
==========
I've been doodling with the idea of a single seat(see rough illustration below) like on an IC but instead of sliding it would be mounted higher off the water and pivot a bit athwartship to keep the lee side clear of the water. It wouldn't be as slick as the IC seat but would probably work well and could be made of ply. What do you think?

click on image:
Attached Thumbnails
New low-cost "hardware store" racing class; input on proposed rules-hiking-seat-inexpensive.jpg  
Attached Files
File Type: pdf CSYSPaperFeb09 Beaver paper on Moth.pdf (882.9 KB, 4311 views)
__________________
yes, it is a Revolution
WOLF-daughter of fire arrow
Reply With Quote
  #100  
Old 04-06-2012, 08:14 PM
Petros Petros is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Rep: 1593 Posts: 2,938
Location: Arlington, WA-USA
interesting idea, but I am not sure why it has to pivot. Wouldn't a beam with some dihedral (like wings) accomplish the same thing? Well I guess it would put the crew up a bit higher, but the lee side would clear the surface just as well. I tend not to like things that move or pivot if they do not have to, sooner or later it will give you trouble (typically at the most inopportune moment).

That is exactly the kind of simple ideas that the class I am proposing would be ideal to test out with an inexpensive boat. Any other class that would allow such experimentation would also require some pretty costly little boats (both hull and sails/rigging) to know if it will have any advantage.

Once we get the rules finalized here, you can take a copy to your local boat building school or foundation and see if you can get a chapter started there.
Reply With Quote
  #101  
Old 04-06-2012, 08:47 PM
Doug Lord's Avatar
Doug Lord Doug Lord is offline
Flight Ready
 
Join Date: May 2009
Rep: 1362 Posts: 13,706
Location: Cocoa Beach, Florida
Quote:
Originally Posted by Petros View Post
interesting idea, but I am not sure why it has to pivot. Wouldn't a beam with some dihedral (like wings) accomplish the same thing? Well I guess it would put the crew up a bit higher, but the lee side would clear the surface just as well. I tend not to like things that move or pivot if they do not have to, sooner or later it will give you trouble (typically at the most inopportune moment).

That is exactly the kind of simple ideas that the class I am proposing would be ideal to test out with an inexpensive boat. Any other class that would allow such experimentation would also require some pretty costly little boats (both hull and sails/rigging) to know if it will have any advantage.

Once we get the rules finalized here, you can take a copy to your local boat building school or foundation and see if you can get a chapter started there.
====================
Thanks! The way I envision it-at least now-is that the "seat" would be mounted on a tube and that tube would slide on another tube running fore and aft-say two or three feet long. That would allow the seat to move fore and aft- which it will probably need to do. This system would allow the freeboard to be, potentially, less than I have shown and the pivot range of the "seat" could be 100%(and very inexpensively) adjustable.
=======
As a suggestion, there might be room in this concept for a version specifically dedicated to older , physically restricted sailors with a rule establishing a class within the overall group, single or double handed where one crew person cannot move-and has to sit in the center of the boat. This would not be restricted to double handed boats either so singlehanded boats sailed with a crew who must sit more or less in the center might add a new fun dimension to the concept. Oh, and everybody would race together. And movable ballast could be used in some exciting ways.......
=====
Another suggestion: either increase the minimum cost to, say $800-1000 OR decrease the length(but not the beam?) to 12' and $600. Two person twelve footers that are powered up can be real fast though whether than kind of "powered up" can be achieved at low cost is a question. At any rate, I'm interested and may get involved after my tri is complete and sailing. I'm particularly interested in a single handed "sit in" version of the concept with movable ballast and/or DSS.
__________________
yes, it is a Revolution
WOLF-daughter of fire arrow
Reply With Quote
  #102  
Old 04-06-2012, 10:18 PM
kvsgkvng's Avatar
kvsgkvng kvsgkvng is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Rep: 49 Posts: 198
Location: *
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Lord View Post
=================
Conceivably, it could be used to allow the boat to sail at an angle of heel upwind(if that worked best in the particular class) with the mast vertical........ What do you think?
I could imagine that in most cases a sailboat would not cruise at a heeling angle more than 20 degrees. In this case the loss of a sail section is about 6% Considering this mathematical fact, is it worth to make the boat mechanics more cumbersome and heavier?

Also, heeling is a mechanism which allows a negative feedback -- meaning the stronger the wind the more boat is heeling thus reducing overturning. If the mast is kept vertical, then some sort of additional mechanism should be utilized to stabilize it. It translates in additional wetted area, or ballast or both. Is it worth for 6%~7%?
Attached Thumbnails
New low-cost "hardware store" racing class; input on proposed rules-heeling_angle_areas.png  
Reply With Quote
  #103  
Old 04-07-2012, 07:37 AM
Doug Lord's Avatar
Doug Lord Doug Lord is offline
Flight Ready
 
Join Date: May 2009
Rep: 1362 Posts: 13,706
Location: Cocoa Beach, Florida
Quote:
Originally Posted by kvsgkvng View Post
I could imagine that in most cases a sailboat would not cruise at a heeling angle more than 20 degrees. In this case the loss of a sail section is about 6% Considering this mathematical fact, is it worth to make the boat mechanics more cumbersome and heavier?

Also, heeling is a mechanism which allows a negative feedback -- meaning the stronger the wind the more boat is heeling thus reducing overturning. If the mast is kept vertical, then some sort of additional mechanism should be utilized to stabilize it. It translates in additional wetted area, or ballast or both. Is it worth for 6%~7%?
===========
Depends on the boat: For the Moth with Veal Heel(windward heel for bi-foilers-up to 30 degrees is effective), Banque Populaire(round the world record holding trimaran), and the America's Cup winner USA 17 the answer is yes.

Pictures: 1) Banque Populaire-130' round the world record holding tri uses a canting mast system, 2) USA 17(look closely at picture) used a canting mast, 3) Moth with Veal Heel: a form of windward heel(up to 30 degrees) unique to bi-foilers where the CG of the hull and everything else moves to windward increasing RM up to 40%.
click on image:
Attached Thumbnails
New low-cost "hardware store" racing class; input on proposed rules-banque-populaire-fastnet-rock-2-8-15-11.jpg  New low-cost "hardware store" racing class; input on proposed rules-bmw-canted-mast.jpg  New low-cost "hardware store" racing class; input on proposed rules-_mg_8375.jpg  

__________________
yes, it is a Revolution
WOLF-daughter of fire arrow
Reply With Quote
  #104  
Old 04-07-2012, 11:31 AM
Steve Clark's Avatar
Steve Clark Steve Clark is offline
Charged Particle
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Rep: 163 Posts: 172
Location: Narragansett Bay RI
$300 seems aggressive to me. Unless you are going to price the bill of materials by actual use than by unit purchased. For example roll of Tyvek is too much for a suit of sails, and costs too much of the budget.
And of course having to buy everything means I can't use the bamboo I have been growing for masts and booms!
SHC
__________________
Beatings will continue until morale improves.
Reply With Quote


  #105  
Old 04-07-2012, 07:02 PM
hoytedow's Avatar
hoytedow hoytedow is offline
Wood Butcher
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Rep: 2489 Posts: 5,311
Location: North of Cuba
Rules should allow home-grown materials such as bamboo.
__________________
Fracking is good.
Reply With Quote
Reply



Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
About factor "F" of ABS ORY rules DUCRUY Jacques Class Societies 2 03-31-2010
01:43 PM 
Getting Afloats' "racing" Sharpie Single-masted? Dunhill_BKK Wooden Boat Building and Restoration 11 04-27-2006
10:44 PM 
CNC made "plug" or mold, cost and finish Raggi_Thor Fiberglass and Composite Boat Building 3 03-09-2006
03:26 PM 
Drawing for Rhino of "Boat Racing Chair" and "Machine Gun" Vibtor Software 0 10-02-2004
02:03 PM 
Bay City, Michigan "Racing" kaioken All Things Boats & Boating 0 08-16-2002
12:03 AM 

Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:38 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Web Site Design and Content Copyright ©1999 - 2017 Boat Design Net