New low-cost "hardware store" racing class; input on proposed rules

I don't think so.

Overly precise rules lead to very simple and obvious loop holes.

For my purposes, 'Beam' will be defined "as the distance between the extreme outer hull skin on one side to the extreme outer hull skin on the other, with the measurement line being at a right angle to the boat's center line". This way, lee boards, side center board and side dagger board racks will not be included, not to mention guards and rub strips, but there is no defined point along the length of the boat where this is to be measured. Only where the extreme outer hull skins, from side to side are furthest apart.

Usually, the widest part of a boat along it's length is quite obvious. At least it is to me.

Now this might take some time to measure, but nothing like trying to figure out 'hull skin area'.

 

I think he meant the the boats were supposed to be beached with the rig down.

I think beach ability is a main design criteria here, or it should be. I would certainly expect this in this kind of boat. Not everyone can afford to pull into a nice marina every time.

Also, in semi casual racing, I think it is reasonable expect the committee to make reasonable exceptions for crew that lack the strength of their counter parts, as long as the boat could be launched by those same counterparts, without the equipment that crew is using. This is something that is relatively easy to prove. Such as when the boats in question weigh roughly the same.

I agree with your bailing comments. I think it is plain dumb to forbid bailing while sailing. I understand the intent, however, and that was to avoid the kind of boats you mentioned earlier in this post.

Also, I don't think this kind of class is going to attract the "big burly" over competitive male sailors. There are plenty of performance oriented classes out there to do that.

I love theorizing on rules. That way, I can play both cop a criminal. I can think of a rule, then think of a way around it. I will post a whole set of suggested rules shortly, just to see how everyone can pick them apart.

 

- I agree; forgot about skin-on-frame. The only thing that concerns me is durability; perhaps I’m putting more emphasis on family use than some others. I don’t think it is important to have the race boats built cheaply, more important that it CAN be built cheaply when the plans are distributed.

- and it could be fun!

- an earlier plan was to limit quantity of material; I was looking for the maximum flexibility. The box rule is simpler - perhaps a bit more limiting which might be a good thing.

- I thought the cargo box was a good idea intended to make the boats useful. I wanted to go a bit further by making the crew actually use it during the race - the equivalent of a family lunch afloat.

- professional involvement may produce better designs but could also be a problem. If things really takes off and there is potential to sell many plans, a professional designer may well hire a professional builder and even a professional crew. Having the builder in the crew levels the field a bit. Perhaps we can have crews switch boats in a random manner?

 

- correct, in fact I went a bit further: “at the start of the race the boat shall start in a condition in which it can be transported . . . ”

- agreed, but I didn’t write that, just that the boat should stop during bailing. A boat being bailed has to have some kind of penalty for potentially unsafe design. However, on mature reflection, stopping may be hard to do in practice: having the boat make a 360 turn might be better but time penalty may work too.

 

'Creative' 20/100 Class

Just for fun, I have written up a set of rules for an imaginary "Creative 20/100 Class. Most of the ideas I present here were posted in this thread by other members. I took what I thought were the best ideas, modified them a bit, to maximize their intended effect, then added them to my list.

I know this is not for everyone, but I invite everyone to look for loop holes, and to give other critiques.

The idea is to give as much design freedom as possible while, at the same time, limiting the risk that one boat, built to this rule, will severely out class another.

In these 17 rules are various bans, incentives, and disincentives intended to promote ingenuity, but at the least cost to fairness.

No type of sailboat is banned out right, but, I hope, some that normally have extreme advantages are proportionately limited within these rules.

please read all of them, including the two definitions, before commenting.



CREATIVE 20/100 CLASS RULES

A.) Hull Dimensions, Materials, and Cost Limits

1.) Hull Beam* and Hull Length* added together must total no more than 20ft.

2.) Must have space for a 24 x 15 x 16 inch 'cooler' or chest, that can be loaded with up to 220 pounds of 'cargo'

3.) Must be made of local low cost material that is available to all, in that locality, at close to the same cost.

4.) Fleet members are to to document the cost of materials and equipment that is put into their boat. This documentation includes receipts.

5.) Any local fleet member can buy the champion boat at the end of the season at 1.5 times the averaged construction cost of the rest of that local fleet.

B.) Sail(s) and Rig Limitations

6.) Upwind and cross wind (working sail) area will be limited to 100sf

7.) Sails must be made of 'poly tarp' or other low cost material agreed upon by the local fleet.

8.) Working sails can have no 'gores' or 'darts' added to, or cut into them, but are allowed to have curved edges.

9.) A Specialized Down Wind Sail ( SDWS) of 50sf will be allowed to be set, in addition to the 100sf of working sail, if the boat is sailing at least 135 degrees off the wind.

10.) This SDWS is allowed to have no more than (2) straight edged 'darts' added to, or cut out of it and must be made out of the same materials as the working sail(s).

11.) Races will start on the beach, with the sails furled and mast down. All equipment needed to raise the mast must b carried during the race. If no beach is available, set up times for each boat must be measured and each boat will be allowed to start after the starting gun and after such set up time for it has passed.

12.) No hiking straps, trapezes, or seats that extend past the 'Hull Beam' are allowed.

Race Conduct and Honors

13.) Some races will be conducted without the 'Cargo'. Whether or not the cargo is to be carried in a race is to be decided by a flip of a coin.

14.) Oars and paddles are allowed to be used at any point in the race, if they are no more than (2) Hull Beams long.

15.) Any boat that loses a crew, capsizes, or sinks, will not be allowed to finish that race.

16.) Seasonal points, to determine a champion, will be awarded in the following manner:

A total of

1 point for Starting,
2 points for Finishing,
3 points for coming in Third,
4 points for coming in Second, and
5 points for coming in First, per race.

17.) The plans of any boat in the fleet are to be available to any member of a local fleet, at the end of a season, for the price of 15% of the averaged construction cost of that fleet, to be paid to the owner of that boat.

*'Hull Beam' is the greatest distance between the outside the extreme Hull skin one side and the extreme outer hull skin on the other, measured by a straight line which is at a right angle to the boat's center line.

*'Hull Length' is the the greatest distance between the extreme outer Hull skin at one end and the extreme outer Hull skin at the other end of the boat, measured in a straight line which is parallel to the boat's center line, if not the center line itself.

 

"local low cost materials" is problematic, what one considers low cost might not be what another does. Even from one group to another in different parts of the country. Unfortunate I think there has to be a simple way to define this so when different parts of the country compete they will all be on an equal standing. Perhaps a fixed total (like suggested, $600), and than have some kind of local adjustments made based on a sample list of materials priced locally?

I do not understand the limit on the sails, darts or curved edges are not that big of a problem. I have made good working tyvek sails with duck tape seams that were easy to make. I see no reason to limit it to flat sails, though that will produce an interesting creative challenge to see how inventors create curves to the flat sails.

 

but the total weight on board does not change just because they eat their lunch, the "cargo" just moves from the box to the crew. Not likely they will be making and potty break during the race. So emptying the cargo box during the race is not necessary.

I do not see this as a problem, not at the beginning anyway. A professional designer would have to agree to make the plans available at the going price for this class of boats, that should keep serious professionals away, and if a pro want to design a boat just for the publicity, so much the better; better plans will be available at a low cost. switching crews is an interesting idea, keeps it fun. Perhaps as a demo race just for fun, but many boat owners, like car owners, can be picky on who can drive their boat and may not want to participate. Might also encourage intentional acts of sabotage too. too many possible problems I think if this kind of racing ever gets big and cut throat. Maybe have one crew member switch teams for one race? I do not see that working. If there was a way of doing it in a fun sportsmanship like way, perhaps as a demonstration challenge from one team to another, just to prove who is the better sailor, it could work.

 

Sounds good except for the following:

For the reasons given by Petros and on behalf of the rest of the World I think using cost as a qualification is just plain unfair to those who do not enjoy the advantages of readily available low cost materials. It will also raise problems when people cut their own wood.

Rules 4) & 5) would seem to encourage submitting high costs to retain ownership.

I don’t see how allowing a downwind sail (rule 9) aids the purpose of competition.

Rule 5) may result in an auction or a fist fight if several members want the same boat.

Rule 16 handicaps a crew that cannot show up to all races. I thought this was going to be a single race competition.

 

- tossing the "cargo" during the race is not about lunch - that was just a poor joke. It’s about accessing the cargo while afloat, and the ability of the boat to sail safely with or without it. The cargo capability should be useful - Bob’s rule 13 ensures the boat will sail with or without it but could allow it to become mere bolt-on water ballast . . .

- I agree; professionals could contribute greatly provided the rules prevent one from having an unfair advantage due to deep pockets. I don’t see this turning out like formula car racing but there is potential for whittling down the field of participants to a fortunate few and several seasons. Needs more ideas . . . ?

- good point about sabotage by a rival - both of the race and even the boat. Maybe just a fun race after the main event: it would demonstrate the boat designers confidence in safety and ease of operation, and could have even more commercial value than winning the main event, but it should be voluntary . . .


For the record I am strongly in support of the concept and it’s good to see renewed interest in the thread. I hope I am not being niggly . . .

 

I have to admit I haven't been following this thread much, but I think you're over working it, which is the basic problem with these types of rules. I think a simple volume approach may be sufficient. Maybe the cubed root of hull volume can't be less than a specific amount of hull length. You don't really have to measure stuff and you'd have to arbitrarily limit sail area to control boat length, but draft and other measurements wouldn't be required. With the sail area limitation, big boats with wouldn't work and the rule would favor plumb ends.

You could add qualifiers, such as must be single chine or built from so many sheets of plywood, but refining the rules to as simple a state as practical, seems the road to success. To keep cost down the boats can't be sheathed, just taped seams and the materials used can only be painted on one side, with the other natural, under varnish or epoxy. This lets you see how they're built and the materials employed, which also could be qualified, such as only CDX or underlayment is acceptable. Maybe solid masts, built up of 1x4 laminates, raw hull weights with appendages installed, etc., this keeps things honest.

Another consideration might be to force a specific set of one off production rigs and sails. Make it however you like, but it has to carry a Catalina 13 or Laser rig and sail (as examples). This forces 12' - 14' boats of modest weight, no over hangs, etc.

In short, controlling volume, sail area, materials and construction are the tickets to a hardware store class. A simple rule that anyone can follow, given the other conditions or qualifiers should work. I think innovation and rule "openness" should be goals, not penalties. For example the beach start isn't a bad idea, but I think a better, less convoluted one could be, all boats must be hand launched, by the crew only, no fenders, dollies, etc. rig up and ready to sail. This again forces weight limitations, permits launching where there isn't a beach (any shore line will do), so it's cheap and easy to handle. I do think hiking straps should be permitted, if for no other reason then you can't really sail a wholesome boat and asking a skipper to not hike, or to do so without the safety of a strap, isn't fair and also favors long, lean skippers over well fed ones.

No oars or paddles during a race, it's sailing not sculling and the typical sailboat racing rules apply, so as to not have confusion about what's legal or not. Then again, you could have a no rules race or limited rules race, such as no contact, starboard has the right of way and double mark rounding to prevent the "divers" (like me). The rest of the rules would fall under the "you screwed up, make your 360", before crossing the line. Of course this type of racing, though fun means most of the fleet is making multiple 360's at the end of each heat.

Rules for a class like this should be as simple as the boats and maybe races, without the need of a committee boat. Anyway, my thoughts . . .

 

Thanks for reading my post and commenting.

For the 'low cost local materials' bit, I was thinking why spend more money than one had to to built a rule compliant boat. The problem with simplicity is it often comes at the cost of fairness. Suppose I lived in a region where bamboo was cheap and readily available, but aluminum was twice what it cost in other regions. Should I be required to fore go bamboo in favor of the more expensive aluminum? I tried too build into my proposed rules every incentive I could think of to make the boats as inexpensively as possible. I just don't see how a price limit can work across widely divergent regions.
I do see how it could work locally.

I agree with AK that one of the best ways to limit the costs of the boat is to limit it's actual size. By that I mean Length, Beam and sail Area. This can be done with a 'box' rule, but the box rule pretty much dictates the dimensions of the boat, doesn't it. Especially if sail area is unlimited. With Sail Area limited, the box sets the hull length and the permitted SA pretty much sets the Beam. I guess my main point here is that a box rule, unless it is wildly generous, limits design freedom more than one would expect.

With the size of the boat and SA pretty much spoken for, plus the other aspects of my proposed rules, such as rules 4 and 5, there will be considerable downward pressure on cost and complexity, without the need to do complicated accounting procedures, as would be needed across regions, with a price limit.

I don't see cross regional competition with this type of class, as it would be difficult if not impossible to keep it fair.

I heard, once upon a time, a fleet of 'Lightnings' was badly beaten by an outside fleet that had affordable access to good cedar. The cedar boats were much lighter, and the heavier local boats didn't stand a chance.

This kind of thing is bound to happen with all but one design boats with set minimum weight restrictions.

Also, I would like to keep glory hounding to a minimum, to make this more about fun than silver.

The sail design limitation is to prevent somebody from building elaborate sail molds to get even better sail shape. I originally got this idea from Mike Storer, as he developed his off shoot of the pd racer class.

I also wanted the SA easier to measure accurately, as my proposed rules expressively limit it.

 

Thanks for reading and commenting, AK.

I don't see how rules 4 and 5 would encourage cost padding. First off, you need to prove you spent the money you said you did, to add it to the local fleet total. Then that total gets divided by the number of boats in that fleet to come up with a 'local fleet' average cost. Say there are five boats in a local fleet and one member spends twice as much as anyone else. Say, for the sake of argument, that everyone in the fleet spends about the same on their boats. Say that cost is 'x'. Now you have 5x, one for each boat, plus one, for the fellow who went double on cost. That makes 6x. 6x divided by five makes 1.2x. The buyer would then have to pay him 1.8x as opposed 1.5x, if that boat turned out to be a champion that season. So for the big spender doubling his investment, he would raised the average cost only 20%. I don't see how this would be tempting.

As for competing buyers (I didn't anticipate this problem, as I saw little likelihood of it coming up, for the reasons stated above), an auction would be a flagrant violation of the rules. They would have to flip a coin, draw straws, or roll a dice, to determine which one gets to buy the boat. I might add that to my rules.

As for the down wind sail, that was suggested and fought for by other posters on this thread. I see two benifits:
1.) It makes the race more exciting, as the boats would sail faster on that point, and
2.) it might make the boats actually safer, sailing down wind, by perhaps reducing the tendency to broach, and or jibe.

Before self steering vanes became available, single handed sailors, such as Joshua Slocum, used jibs set far forward to deliberately produce a lee helm, when sailing down wind. Since the down wind sail in my proposed rule is limited to half the SA of the 'working rig', I don't anticipate the wild handling hijinks we saw in the IOR days, where the size of the spinnaker was limited only by the length of the fore triangle and the height of the mast.

 

Thanks for reading my proposed rules and commenting.

I will put my comments in your text.

Thanks again for your considered opinions.

 

You’re right Bob: I didn’t read it properly, although the effectiveness of using the fleet average to determine the sale price of the winning boat depends on the size of the fleet. I don't quite understand the purpose of "the local fleet" - is the contest to be held on a purely local basis then? I have been hoping for a more broad based approach. Local competitions are fine for single design races, but the search for a great new design should attract talent from a wider field, Wolrd-wide IMHO.

I must admit I never liked this forced sale business and I repeat my objection to having rules based on cost. It favors those who can cut their own wood, tilts the field against non-Americans in general, and in some places may give rise to unsafe boats built with unsuitable material.


PAR: welcome to the thread! I don’t think we're overworking this. There’s a great deal of effort going into the simplest possible rule set that is still robust and achieves the objective. I very rarely disagree with you, but I don’t see how a volume measurement can be simpler than a box rule which only requires length, beam (and if necessary depth) and wich can all be be measured with a tape.


The suggestion of a standard sail has been made before. I don’t see the point; inevitably the “standard set” will be available in one place and not another, and it shuts off all possibility of somebody comming up with a bright idea for the rig. Coming from Canada I only have to face higher costs but I can get anything you guys can pretty much, but I don’t see why we should shut out the rest of the world - there’s a lot of clever people out there. We love you Americans but you can be just a little bit parochial at times . . .


Petros: now I've got that off my chest, perhaps it is time to have a summary of where we are at. If the majority is for cost-based rules then I will have to accept that.

 

It seems to me that anytime you limit the design with complex calculations, or with materials limitations, single rig, etc. you limit creativity. And if the objective is a low cost design, than the cost of the materials is what should be measured, not anything else. Lets find a way to measure materials cost fairly, and let the designers and inventors find a way to make a fast boat within that budget. One way to make it uniform throughout the country might be to use an "index cost" for all the components, perhaps gleaned from mail order suppliers (without local sales tax or shipping). So a contestant only needs to supply a list of materials used, and the source of the index cost that must be available nationally (the way it can be verified by the committee if a question arises). And they can buy it locally, or even used salvaged materials, but everyone will have to build to the national index cost.

I actually kind of like the idea of allowing paddles, at least on some of the races. If the wind drops below 2 knots, any kind of muscle power is allowed? But we are looking for good performing sailboats, not row boats. Paddling might be allowed for a 4 hour (or longer) "raid" race, where they could not keep it up for long, and the race is in real sailing conditions, and the wind might drop off at times.

This was not intended to be a one race event, they have those and you get disposable boats. My intent was to have at least 4 events on different days during the summer so the boats must last a season long at least. Some events will be traditional dingy races in a triangle coarse, or a simple out and back, some with the cargo box, and some without. At least one event will be a "raid" type race with a beach start, and all supplies for the day must be carried on the boat. I see no problem with a launch dolly for the beach, but it must be carried in the boat. This could be modified to have the race start from "trailer ready" condition (I like the concept, it results in a more practical boat that is faster to rig). the raid event would allow the use of paddles or oars since it is sailing in real conditions anyway.

I see no reason to ban hiking straps, they are simple and you will get people leaning over anyway, so just allow it. It is simple and inexpensive. I do not want to complicated the opeation of the boat so I want to keep moving seats or hiking board, trapeses and spinaakers out of the design. I would think that the box rule would limit the size of the sail, but perhaps a max size sail area is not unreasonable. A boat with large sails is not usually simple to operate. a max sail size keeps it simple and keeps cost down.

I do not like the claim it/buy out rule at all, it means you loose all your hard work, and where this is allowed has often resulted in deep pocketed competitors to buy out their competition, rather than win a race fair and square. NO BUY out RULE, it does not limit cost and nothing good comes from it.