New low-cost "hardware store" racing class; input on proposed rules

[brehm62]

Originally Posted by upchurchmr

I'd rather try a mono using the Bolger Gypsy.
Don't know if you could make $500

Is that stitch and glue or do you have to build a form? I wouldn't recommend either of those for a first time builder. Also, I don't think there is a homebrewed sail option and I think you have to hike out to keep from tipping over. Seems like jumping in the deep end to me. Heck if you are going to do that why not just go to a Bolger Light Schooner and get some real speed?

In terms of cost you have 5 sheets of plywood, 2 gallons of epoxy, 10 yards of fabric and 5 lbs of glass bubbles plus 3" glass tape.

5 sheets plywood - $62
2 gallons epoxy - Raka 3 gallon kit, $168
10 yards of fabric - 4 ounce, 40" wide, $46.50
5 lbs glass bubbles - $30
3" tape - $25

That's over $300 without fittings, spars, blocks, rope, or sails.

If you are a Bolger fan then something like the Rubens Nymph would seem like a good first boat project. It gets easier after you've built one.

[upchurchmr]

There is nothing about this competition that is aimed at first time builders. The brief was for innovation in boat building with a cost limit.

First time builders can add another 50% to anything they build. Except perhaps a sandbox, AKA a PDR.

A birds mouth wood mast, a tarp sail and hardware store pulleys would get you close to $500, although I don't think I would use $12/sheet plywood. Probably I just haven't gotten in the spirit of the proposed rules. For cheap would you just use epoxy/tape for the joints only? Another thread touched on using PL Premium and fiberglass mesh for joints rather than expensive epoxy. So take off $168, and $46.80, and $30 (5 #s????). But add some solid wood, several tubes of PL ($6 each) and you are still much cheaper. Paint doesn't count to the cost, right?

I am not a Bolger fan but I think the Gypsy is probably a better boat than a Brick.

This is also a competition. What boat and how it is built is just a means to an end.

[brehm62]

Originally Posted by upchurchmr

There is nothing about this competition that is aimed at first time builders. The brief was for innovation in boat building with a cost limit.

Well, actually I don't remember seeing what the intended skill level was. Even if the OP is skilled that doesn't mean that everyone else in his area who might want to race is. I'm not seeing this myself. This seems more likely a good way to waste a lot of time and money and effort and not end up with any racing fleet.

I am not a Bolger fan but I think the Gypsy is probably a better boat than a Brick.

The PDR is not a Brick; they don't really have much in common. Think of it more like a pram.

This is also a competition. What boat and how it is built is just a means to an end.

I don't see that either. If the purpose is to have a racing fleet (which is exactly what the OP stated at the start) then picking an existing design (like you suggested) looks to me like the way to go. Having everyone modify their boats is generally a formula for disaster. It just seems to me that if everyone in his area was indeed a skilled boat builder then they would already have a racing fleet (or maybe several).

[Doug Lord]

I think the idea was to foster a design competition within parameters that would control costs....

[upchurchmr]

Yes this was a design competition, with racing proving who did the best design. Actually it is obvious to me it is a Design, Build, Sail competition, since failure in any one of those will lose the race.

Since the entire thread was about how to set rules for the new designs, to foster innovation, I don't see where picking one of the hundreds of one designs meet the goals.

Your right - a PDR is not a Brick, the PDR is bigger. I think you should be welcome to bring a PDR to this competition, as soon as you do something innovative with it. I'm all in favor of the real merits of two boats being illustrated head to head. Too bad we can't have identical sailors to make the competition more exact.

PDR and Brick don't have much in common? Sorry that doesn't wash.

If I were close enough to race and chose a Gypsy as a starting point, you can be sure there would be changes that I thought were innovative - I might very well be wrong and just be worse. Bolger does have a bit of a reputation!

Doug, if this were just a Design competition we would just draw up ideas and let someone judge like Wooden Boat does.

[brehm62]

Originally Posted by upchurchmr

Yes this was a design competition, with racing proving who did the best design.

Okay, that is quite different. If it is a design competition then it doesn't matter if most of the boats are failures since that is part of the process.

Your right - a PDR is not a Brick, the PDR is bigger.

Right, same length but more beam, 4' instead of 3' 2".

I think you should be welcome to bring a PDR to this competition, as soon as you do something innovative with it.

No, since this is a design competition I think the Gypsy, June Bug, or Surf are all good starting points for a two person dinghy.

PDR and Brick don't have much in common? Sorry that doesn't wash.

Of course it does. These two boats are somewhat similar but have completely different design criteria. Most small punt boats are going to be similar just as most small dinghies are similar.

Doug, if this were just a Design competition we would just draw up ideas and let someone judge like Wooden Boat does.

Let me quote what Jim Michalak said:

Woobo was designed for the "perfect skiff" competition that Wooden Boat magazine had about ten years ago (hence the name "Woobo"). I didn't win anything and the experience led me to never enter another contest. Although the contest was well conceived I had the impression the final judging was done by no one who had read the contest objectives. The usual result is that the winning boat is the slickest looking boat but not the best functionally. The winning design in this case was quite good but I'd still bet that Woobo is superior functionally in every way.

WOOBO, ROW/SAIL SKIFF, 15' X 4', 150 POUNDS EMPTY

[brehm62]

Originally Posted by Petros

A small group of us in the Puget Sound area are exploring the idea of creating a new class of low cost sailboats.

The object is to create a class of good performing day sailors that allows maximum creativity on the part of designers and builders, and stay within a limited budget to promote entry level sailing and encourage more people to get involved.

A PDR is perfect for promoting entry level sailing and getting more people involved. From the above I had thought this was about sailing and racing.

This will encourage new designs and eventually build up a catalog of low cost good performing sailboat plans.

But here I would agree this seems to be more about design than having a fleet of racing boats.

[CutOnce]

Originally Posted by brehm62

A PDR is perfect for promoting entry level sailing and getting more people involved. From the above I had thought this was about sailing and racing.

But here I would agree this seems to be more about design than having a fleet of racing boats.

Brehm62:

No one seems to be contesting that a PDR is a good entry level boat, but if you read the original poster's statement of requirements he specifies Puget Sound and a group of potential people building a class for racing.

Puget Sound is a large salt water venue with lots of weather and wave. It is not exactly the PDR's ideal cup of tea. There is nothing wrong with the original poster steering his request towards new designs appropriate for the venue. His group may collectively have reviewed the current options and decided that nothing currently available hit the mark.

There is also the consideration that the in-your-face rectilinear form of the PDR, where build simplicity, 90 degree joints and refusal to bend anything but the rectangular hull bottom does generate lots of commentary from the yacht club crowd. It's a fact, pretty girls get more attention than homely ones.

Building a fleet has a lot more issues than getting the lowest cost price for 10+ boats. The strongest fleets with the highest growth and best retention in my area aren't the cheapest boats. They are boats that balance price, competition, resale value, image and social scene. Things may be different in your area.

--
CutOnce

[upchurchmr]

Cut once,

We all make somewhat rash statements when we reply to a poster we don't agree with (there are a few higher class souls who don't). I'm no exception and apologize fairly often.

But don't lump me in with the "yacht club crowd". I just don't like in-your-face rectilinear design and never have. "Rectilinear" thinking is one of the things I criticize at work on a regular basis. Yacht club crowds drove me out when I had a Tornado cat. I couldn't get anyone to talk to me in two years.

[CutOnce]

Originally Posted by upchurchmr

Cut once,

We all make somewhat rash statements when we reply to a poster we don't agree with (there are a few higher class souls who don't). I'm no exception and apologize fairly often.

But don't lump me in with the "yacht club crowd". I just don't like in-your-face rectilinear design and never have. "Rectilinear" thinking is one of the things I criticize at work on a regular basis. Yacht club crowds drove me out when I had a Tornado cat. I couldn't get anyone to talk to me in two years.

Funny, there was no intention of my comment being directed towards you - I pretty much agree 100% with your positions. PDRs and most of the homebuild instant-type boats built with a minimum of panels and lowest possible costs will never cause the yacht club set to open the doors and yell "free beer!".

I was a casualty in a group of skiff sailors that were caught up in the idiotically expensive I-14 arms race at my club and ended up leaving because I didn't fit in.

--
CutOnce

[upchurchmr]

Cutonce,

My mistake. I agree with me, and you about the simplistic boats. I just didn't want to be one of "those" yachty types.

[sharpii2]

Originally Posted by brehm62

Well, actually I don't remember seeing what the intended skill level was. Even if the OP is skilled that doesn't mean that everyone else in his area who might want to race is. I'm not seeing this myself. This seems more likely a good way to waste a lot of time and money and effort and not end up with any racing fleet.


The PDR is not a Brick; they don't really have much in common. Think of it more like a pram.

A PDR is VERY similar to a 'Brick'. Both have rectangular plan forms (top views), both are 8 ft long and 4 ft wide, and both have only a fore and aft curve in the bottom. The difference between a 'Brick' (designed by Phil Bolger) and a PDR is the depth and shape of the rocker (fore and aft curve) which is the only curve below the DWL. The 'Brick' has a much deeper rocker and is intended for maximum load carrying capability. The PDR has a six inch deep rocker with a 1 ft long flat segment in it. It is a more compromised design, where some payload capacity is sacrificed for greater speed potential.

Lightly loaded PDR's have been known to sail as fast as 6 kts in favorable conditions. A 'Brick' is probably limited to 4 kts or less, no matter what its load condition, because of brutal curves in its rocker.

The 'Oz Duck' is an Australian one design derivative of the PDR which has only a five inch deep rocker and has no flat segment in it. It is designed for light construction and carefully engineered, by Mike Storer, to that end. It is probably faster than a PDR, but that may be more about the weight of the boat and skipper, than inherent superiority of the design. 'Oz Ducks carry 80 sf of sail, where PDR's carry a wide variety of sail areas. 'Oz Ducks' typically weigh 60 lbs or less for the hull. PDR's have a typical hull weight of 100 lbs or so. Some are much heavier.

If you followed the history of the PDR fleet ('Oz Ducks' were originally designed for that fleet and were once class legal) you will see how far off the rails a very simple developmental design class rule can go.

[RHough]

Originally Posted by Petros

The object is to create a class of good performing day sailors that allows maximum creativity on the part of designers and builders, and stay within a limited budget to promote entry level sailing and encourage more people to get involved.

-- snip --


Comments, ideas or suggestions?

I read the first 12 pages and skimmed the rest ...

Objectives:
1 Create a Class
2 Good Performance day sailing
3 Allow Creativity
4 Limited Budget
5 Promote Entry Level Sailing
6 Encourage More People to Sail

These are all great goals and the number of replies and ideas put forth show some interest.

My question is how many of the stated goals are compatible?

#1,2,3,4 require skills and knowledge that would seem to exclude #5 and to an extent #6

The $600 USD cost limit #4 makes it seem that the idea would be attractive to #5 & 6 but in reality how many people have the space, tools, and time to participate?

I know the rules are set but in order to help objectives 4, 5, & 6 I have an idea.

Try to get some designers to support the class with plans for a boat that uses a BOM that fits the cost rule. This allows two things. It avoids a new sailor from having to risk his investment on a new design. It also allows someone with building skills or a small group to build several boats as a team. A budding sailor could participate in the build team as a gopher and have a boat to sail at the end of the process.

If there were two or three clubs that built boats there could be a Design Regatta at the end of a season. The winning design would become the low cost One-Design for the next few years. The National Chain Store could by the rights and fund the class ... the winning design would be a "Lowes 14" or "Home Depot 16" or whatever. The Stores get the parts list and sell a "kit" of the BOM to prospective owners.

Anyone that wants to can still build their own design and the Class Design is set every four years (like the Racing Rules Cycle).

Having a known good boat and some access for those that do not have the aforementioned Space, Skills, Tools or Time will go far to get to what I see as the most important objectives: Controlling Costs and Getting More Entry Level Sailors out on the water.

If you added something to the design that would make it attractive for Clubs to use it as a Youth and or Adult "Learn to Sail" boat, you might have a winner. A new laser is over $9000 USD ... if a Club could have 10 "True Value 16's" for the price of 1 Laser I can think of several clubs that might be interested.

Sorry to go on ... just wanted to add a few thoughts.

Randy

[messabout]

Upchurch and all; I can tell you that Bolgers Gypsy is one helluva boat if all round usefulness is the aim. Phil specified a 59 sq. ft. sprit boomed sail. It goes nicely with that tiny rag. In brisk air it will go much better than "nicely". It is also a decent rowing boat. It will handle a sizeable chop and ugly wakes if a bit of seamanship is in place.

The design has some pretty cleverly contrived sections that minimize wetted surface for a flat paneled boat.

An experienced sailor could use more sail up to 80 or 90 feet as long as the mast was kept low. I'm thinking peak sprit or lug sail, either of which could be home grown. The 59 footer is a stock item with the Payson folks. Cheap too. The last one I bought was $130 but that was five years ago.

The complete plans are in one of Paysons instant boat books. I do think it would be the decent thing to do to pay for the plans and maybe cut a deal with Susanne Altenberger for extra sets if more than one was to be built.

[sawmaster]

re:hardware store racing class: Somehow this post morphed from a discussion about a design/build/ sail competition to a discussion of boats already designed (BOLGER) If mr bolger is still among the living Im sure he would be welcome to enter one of his designs--he could very well win--however I would like a chance to see If I could best him.This is primarily a DESIGN competion,even though a superior design, poorly sailed, could still lose.-I believe the purpose was to come up with a new design--better than whats already available--,however for those who believe the ultimate low cost home built has already been achieved,perhaps the rules could be changed to allow a bolger design to be sailed by somebody else.--of couse this invites a slippery slope -less than optimal designs -sailed by well paid professionals may negate the whole point of low cost in the first place.