New High Performance Monofoilers

[Chris Ostlind]

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

... Ideally, a two boat program would be necessary with plenty of time to work up the technology. Damn, it would be so cool!

So would a flying saucer with full cloaking and unlimited Photon Torpedoes.

[bistros]

Originally Posted by Paul B

The Canucks reportedly spent a very large amount chasing the ICCC trophy. Some would say a crazy amount of filthy lucre. At least they had a prize worth chasing.

Being able to develop, trial and race a world class series with Steve Clark and Cogito is certainly a prize worth chasing - word police problems with calling it the Little America's Cup notwithstanding.

Fredo is far more than a money spender here is Canada - he is both a world class helmsman as well as a silent and unassuming benefactor of high performance sailing development. Trickle down parts & boats from Fredo's circle have energized many enthusiasts - making skiff sailing a reality here with several active and growing fleets of I-14s. Fredo owns and sponsored the Beiker 5 molds that made all the winning I-14s in the last few years - he put the money on the table to make these boats possible.

Fredo also isn't afraid of trying things most people wouldn't dare - he built, tested and subsequently abandoned the C-Class foiler after determining without prejudice that it was NOT competitive with his standard C-Class cat.

The Fredo I've met is a very nice, unassuming guy, with no agenda other than to help other people get excited and have a great time sailing performance boats along with him. From third party reports, I've been told Fredo is a national leader in many philanthropic endeavors, a smart businessman and a careful and thoughtful steward of his family's fortune.

--
Bill

[Paul B]

Originally Posted by bistros

The Fredo I've met is a very nice, unassuming guy, with no agenda other than to help other people get excited and have a great time sailing performance boats along with him. From third party reports, I've been told Fredo is a national leader in many philanthropic endeavors, a smart businessman and a careful and thoughtful steward of his family's fortune.

--
Bill

I was not denigrating Mr. Eaton's effort. I was trying to point out the commitment required to build/debug/trial ANY sort of C Class vessel is an enormous undertaking.

Considering what was spent on the Canuck program, with all of the Cogito info open to them as reference, implies making some other type of competitive C Class would require even more funding and time to be successful. I can't see anyone stepping up to that.

Even the Mirabaud would probably be lapped by Fred's boat at this point, even with their year in the converted 18 and another year sailing their erector set boat.

The first foiling R Class skiff raced the rest of the fleet and led at times by 10 minutes!
more here: http://www.rclass.org/seasons/2008/r-class-on-tv3

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

This boat has been developed by Full Force boats in the UK. It has beaten the Moth in some races and been beaten by the Moth. A new company carrying the full RS line says that they will be importing the 600FF into the US. The first singlehanded bi-foiler with a trapeze it is an interesting development:

UPDATE: The importer is saying under $20,000 here in the states.

[Chris Ostlind]

Slow day at the hype factory, is it?

I'd really like to share your fizz on all this, Doug, but really, this is not news and it's not something to crow about; The R-Class thing.

Go get the Plain Jane Subaru Impreza 2.5 with 170 hp. You know, the one that suburb mom's buy... Go put it up against a full turbo Impreza WRX STI at 305 hp and you get the same result.

Dude, let us know when you have something of real substance.

[Chris Ostlind]

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

UPDATE: The importer is saying under $20,000 here in the states.

"Is saying" being the words of note. Let's get the container landed and see what show's up as an invoice.

[PI Design]

$20k is a lot of money, especially for a singlehander, and especially in this economic climate!

[bistros]

Originally Posted by PI Design

$20k is a lot of money, especially for a singlehander, and especially in this economic climate!

Absolutely too much money for the economic climate, although I don't think it is overpriced in terms of materials cost, labor required & thin profits for the importer and all involved. Face it, these machines are not money makers, as the weight requirements and tiny production volumes demand use of high cost, high labor composites.

I just don't see enough market out there to support a $20K one person recreational purchase in enough volume to make it worthwhile to build. What are worldwide volumes going to be in a year? 20 - 30 units? That is only a half million dollars at retail. Subtract material costs, shipping, labor costs, importer percentage and I doubt there is enough to send the manufacturing team to the pub for an afternoon's debauchery.

Other than Wind_Apparent, I see no vocal evidence of North American pent up demand for trapeze foiling. My club, one of the hotbeds of performance sailing in North America with a strong and growing I-14 fleet hasn't been talking in the bar about foiling. Everybody here is looking to climb the I-14 arms race ladder - the Penultimate folks want a Beiker 3, the M12 and Beiker 3 people want a Beilker 5 and the Beiker 5 folks want there to be no new developments that will obsolete their $35K two-man wunderboots.

A one or two guys at the club have had a go on the Bladerider and Prowler, but no one has been excited enough to buy one. Our economy is very closely coupled with the US, and people are worried about their jobs, or the real estate market following the US down the toilet.

I think the foiling market is very price sensitive. The single hand price point that has been proven to work in high volume is $6-7K. Laser price range. I think there is some latitude to have foiling demand a somewhat higher price, but not $13K more than a Laser.

Many stillborn "revolutions" never make it past the stage where a few fanatics babble amongst themselves and fail to get the necessary crowd excited enough to reach critical mass.

--
Bill

Yes, it is a revolution, but not the Che Guevara kind!

[ancient kayaker]

Bistros, in the current economic situation are any boats money makers?

You’re correct that top-end foiling has no prospects for commercial success beyond parts. The top guys don’t want the same as the other guy, they want an edge. Therefore everything is custom-built and design success is short-lived. That’s true of most if not all extreme performance activities.

You’re right about price sensitivity. As a recreational boater, offered a choice between a laser or a trapeze foiler, even at the same price I’d take the Laser in a New York minute; I prefer a more practical boat. In the same circumstances however, I might be tempted by a foiler that could still get me around in non-foiling mode with a place for the beer, if it would trailer or car-top. The “People’s Foiler” is discussed in other threads but it’s where commercial success will be found if it happens. Club guys want class rules so they can race each other; that would tap that important market.

[Chris Ostlind]

Originally Posted by ancient kayaker

... in the current economic situation are any boats money makers?

Well, yes, there are some boats that do make money for the guys who make them. Take the O'pen BIC, for example. Thousands of them have been sold since their introduction just a few years ago. At $3K out the door with a set of extras as sales enhancements, it makes all kinds of sense as a kid's training craft in this market. The boat is vacu-thermoformed and has similar qualities to polyethylene sit-on-top kayaks in that it is darned near indestructible. For that matter, pretty much the entire line of plastic boats by Hobie are also doing well.

A foiler, because of weight and strength senstitivities, has to be built from a different set of material choices, so the pricing structure is quite different. And then there is the issue of the foils, themselves. Let's just say that they cost quite a bit and leave it at that.

Originally Posted by ancient kayaker

The “People’s Foiler” is discussed in other threads, but it’s where commercial success will be found if it happens...

IF is one heck of a big word with all the issues that need to be sorted. This particular segment of the sailing world requires a different set of objective accomplishments in order to be functional. The foils have to take some pretty big loads, yet be as light as possible. Same with the hull. To get a light, strong, solo boat that can be handled by a guy, or gal, with typically much lower skills than the guys you see right now blasting away on the Moth, AND deliver it at a price point that will attract the public; that's the nut to crack.

Bladerider produces a fiberglass Moth foiler at something less than the all-carbon version. It's heavier. Because it is heavier, the optimal weight for the driver is going to be lower. That process limits the market potential without any adjustments for current global economy issues. Every reduction in market potential does a real number on the success quotient of the product. Pretty soon, the need to compromise the product forces it into a place where it can't possibly be called a "People's" anything.

Over at Sailing Anarchy, just today, http://www.sailinganarchy.com/fringe...0innerview.htm there's the first part of an innerview with The Man, Hobie Alter. He and a few close friends were totally responsible for putting the most successful sailing product in history in front of the buying public. He makes the point that the H16's real potentcy as a marketable product was not in the techno stuff, but in the ability of the boats to get families and couples out on the water and subsequently enjoying the beach boat social interaction of the whole thing.

It's going to be very hard to do that with a solo boat that costs a small fortune and is difficult to learn. Make it into a two crew craft in order to edge into that socializing paradigm mentioned by Hobie and the costs escalate even more. It's a self-defeating proposition. Especially when you go out and price a brand new Hobie16 for comparison... which, by the way, are still in production after more than 250,000 copies have ben sold since introduced.

We can wait for another miracle fiber and fabrication process for the foiling product to become viable, or we can move along and get another boat that works for the budget and the desires. With enough time for the above to materialize, I'm sure that someday, the potential just may be out there. Question then is... By that time, what technology flavor of the month thing will have long ago superceded the foiler... finding nobody interested anymore?

[Paul B]

Originally Posted by Chris Ostlind

Especially when you go out and price a brand new Hobie16 for comparison... which, by the way, are still in production after more than 250,000 copies have ben sold since introduced.

I worked my way through college at a Hobie dealership.

If anything could ever be called "the peoples" whatever it would be the Hobie 16.

Most of the boats we sold (>50%) were to people who had never sailed before. We included several hours of sailing lessons with the purchase price. First lessson included how to rig everything, then sail. Second lesson they rigged their boat and launched, then we would go meet them and sail. We would capsize/right the boat during the second lesson.

Many customers would not complete all the lesson hours, they would be comfortable after a couple and would be on the beach with everyone else at the weekends, learning more from their peers.

The Hobie platform is so stable it is easy to learn the basics without swimming. No boards, easily launch off the beach, pretty much idiot proof. You could never do that sort of thing on a Laser, let alone a Moth.

If someone asks me today what they should do to get into sailing I tell them to buy a used Hobie 16. For under US$1K they can be out on a good learning platform, going faster than most others on the water.

Foilers are cool things, but they lack the simplicity and ease of use of the H16.

Have a Hobie Day.

This thread is about High Performance Monofoilers- these boats make no pretence about being a "Peoples Foiler" -an ENTIRELY different breed of machine that is easy to launch, easy to sail and not around yet. Comparing a Moth or R Class foiler or RS600FF to a Hobie 16 is ridiculous.
A "Peoples Foiler" will have buoyancy pods, retractable foils ,reefable rig, and be designed to take off in 5 knots of wind. It will be easy to sail off a beach, to handle on the beach, easy to trailer and easy to rig. It will not be "fiddly",
and will be able to be sailed at different skill levels.
And when "turboed" it will be a "High Performance Monofoiler". It's just a matter of time.....

[Chris Ostlind]

and, and... There’ll be a Smoking Caterpillar, and a Red Queen and most important of all... There's also gonna be this rather curious old man who runs around all full of the most impossible energy always blabbing-on about new fangled things and... he will wear ragtag clothing and a crazily tilted Top Hat!!! Isn't that cute?


All in jest, my friends, all in jest.

[Paul B]

Originally Posted by Chris Ostlind

and, and... There’ll be a Smoking Caterpillar, and a Red Queen and most important of all... There's also gonna be this rather curious old man who runs around all full of the most impossible energy always blabbing-on about new fangled things and... he will wear ragtag clothing and a crazily tilted Top Hat!!! Isn't that cute?

The author who gave us those flights of fancy was an opiate abuser, who went so far as to import a wombat that lived on his dining table, also partaking of his master's stash.

Not only that, the author was awkward in social situations and is reported to be a paedophile.


The "Mad Hatter" is not just some random collection of words to build a character. The people of the time who made hats would soak them in a mercury solution to make the fabric hold shape. This massive exposure to mercury would eventually poison them and drive them mad. Of course people didn't know why the hatters were all going starkers, they assumed people like that were just drawn to that profession.