New High Performance Monofoilers

[bistros]

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

An example of the future of Skiff design:
www.rclass.org

More accurately an example of future foiler design. Once the class majority migrates to foiling, it is no longer a skiff.

Originally Posted by bistros

More accurately an example of future foiler design. Once the class majority migrates to foiling, it is no longer a skiff.

-----------
Funny, I don't think the R Class will agree with you.......

See this: http://www.3news.co.nz/High-hopes-In...ult.aspx#video

[ancient kayaker]

The way of the future! Are foils being banned from classes that permit a measure of innovation?

When the I14 class adopted the rudder foil that is now standard they wrote the rule to effectively ban fully flying lifting hydrofoils. Despite that there are 14ers experimenting with lifting foils. In the 18's there are different rules in Europe and Australia yet there are two-possibly going on three 18's in Europe experimenting with foils. Many classes have rules that effecively ban hydrofoils but that doesn't stop the adventuresome from experimenting. I think sooner or later we will have new classes of one,two and three person foilers that are designed from scratch as foilers. I think that some of these may not be fully flying using foils to "assist" upwind while flying offwind.
But there are many avenues of foil development being explored-it will be exciting to see what results!

[bistros]

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

When the I14 class adopted the rudder foil that is now standard they wrote the rule to effectively ban fully flying lifting hydrofoils. Despite that there are 14ers experimenting with lifting foils. In the 18's there are different rules in Europe and Australia yet there are two-possibly going on three 18's in Europe experimenting with foils. Many classes have rules that effecively ban hydrofoils but that doesn't stop the adventuresome from experimenting. I think sooner or later we will have new classes of one,two and three person foilers that are designed from scratch as foilers. I think that some of these may not be fully flying using foils to "assist" upwind while flying offwind.
But there are many avenues of foil development being explored-it will be exciting to see what results!

Translation from Hype to English:

Yes. Many classes have banned foiling.

The additional cost and lowered appeal to potential class members has caused many classes to democratically decide to avoid foiling as the future of their class.

At this point we have the Moth, RS600FF, and R Class that allow full flying foiling for class racing. And the I-14 has approved "foil assist" for class racing. C Class catamarans allow foils and individuals in the B-14 class,Aussie 18 class and other classes are experimenting with foils.
And thats just the tip of the iceberg: dozens of individuals all over the world are doing their own independent development of dinghy foilers.
Yes,it is a revolution.

[ancient kayaker]

Generally I am a reactionary, but in this case, long live the revolution!

[Chris Ostlind]

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

At this point... C Class catamarans allow foils...

Yes,it is a revolution.

Thread Subject: New High Performance Monofoilers

Doug, it appears that you have, once again soiled a thread, by mentioning off-topic subject material with the inclusion of the C-Class catamarans as foil equipped monohull boats.

Take special notice of the photo below in which the only foiling C-Class cat is shown. I could be totally wrong here, but it really does look as if the boat actually has two hulls. Of course, why would a guy such as yourself, who prides himself on being oh-so technically correct about foiling, ever foist such a scam on the readers here? While you guys are absorbing the disconnect, observe the fairly pronounced bend-off of the rudder foils on the cat ,as they absorb lateral loading. This impossible phenomenon was denied by none other than our own, Doug Lord, who wishes to attribute the reality to optical illusions and other, non-disclosed sources. This is the same guy who refused to talk about that bending-off issue, saying that it was off-topic for the thread.

How very ironic.

Doug... Please remove the offending material in your post and get the discussion back on topic. I'm sure that there are, literally, dozens of revolutionary reasons why this is so, but it's truly amazing that you can't even conform to the subject of your own thread.

The reference to the C Class was not because it is or isn't a monofoiler-it was merely to illustrate another major class that allows hydrofoils in development. By the way, a C Class monofoiler IS possible.

[Chris Ostlind]

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

The reference to the C Class was not because it is or isn't a monofoiler-it was merely to illustrate another major class that allows hydrofoils in development. By the way, a C Class monofoiler IS possible.

It looks like the purpose for including a cat in a monohull discussion was purely hype driven to fluff the importance of what is already a very tiny number of experimental boats. Major Class? In whose boating lexicon is the C-Class a major class? Certainly, you could have selected a better example than the remarkably tiny C-Class of racing catamarans where the only foiling foray has been, shall we say.... less than exciting.

To illustrate this point... How many boats do you suppose were at the last C-Class Worlds in Toronto, Doug? Go ahead, list the boat names for us and make a hyped statement about the huge turnout.

Now tell us if the foil equipped C-Clas boat has seen any further development since the experimental tryout at the Worlds, where it was decidedly off pace compared to the typical, non-foiled cat. The guys who built it, Eaton and Clarke, have said they are done, after spending the wad necessary to get it on the water. Too many issues to sort, too slow around the course and way too expensive to continue to mess with it, was the conclusion reached. A noble effort, to be sure, but one which has been quietly put away as a "been there, done that" moment in sailing history. Of course, you could always bankroll the further development of the boat on your own time and show us all just how much you know about the technology. What a golden opportunity for you to demonstrate your mastery....

Go look at the rules.... again, Doug. You were scolded on this pipe dream idea of a monohull being class legal in the C-Class events by none other than Mr. Steve Clark, the driver of Cogito. When will you stop trying to impress the guys, who are reading this thread, with unsupportable hype that is pure fabrication?

Here is an excerpt from the C-Class rules for your consideration. I direct your attention to entry number one below:


Written by International C Class Catamaran
Thursday, 08 March 2007
International C Class Catamaran

The C Class Catamaran is controlled by the rules of the International C Class Catamaran Association, which are as follows:


1. A catamaran is defined as a two-hulled sailing boat with essentially duplicate or mirror image hulls, fixed in parallel positions.

2. Sail area shall not be more than 300 square feet.

The sail area shall be measured in accordance with the “ISAF Guide to Sail Area Calculation", which is available on the internet at http://www.sailing.org/technical/GuideSailArea.pdf

3. The overall length of the catamaran shall not be more than 25 feet.

The length shall be measured between perpendiculars to the extremities of the hulls with the catamaran in her normal trim. The measurement shall be taken parallel to the centre line of the craft and shall exclude rudder hangings, but if the athwartships width of a rudder within 6 inches of the bottom of the hull is more than 3 inches, the length shall be taken to the aftermost point of the rudder.

4. The extreme beam shall not be more than: 14 feet.

The beam shall be measured at right angles to the centre line of the craft at the widest point and including all fixed or adjustable apparatus with the exception of any trapeze or retractable seat.

5. The crew shall be two persons.

6. Unballasted retractable seats or trapezes shall be allowed for the crew. When in use the crew at all times shall have at least one foot in contact with the boat.

7. The C Class emblem shall be carried on the mainsail and shall consist of the letter C over two parallel horizontal lines over national letters and sail numbers,


These rules very clearly indicate a two hulled vessel and not a monohull.

There would have to be a "minor" rule change to allow a monohull to race in the C Class. I imagine in years past that would not be a problem since it was always considered impossible for a monohull to beat a cat its own length. Not any more since a Moth has beaten every cat under 20' so far.
Steve Clark was gracious enough to say that he would race me if I ( or anyone else,I imagine) came up with a C Class monofoiler that fit all the rules except being a cat. He's first class.
One day it will happen and if it is done right and the race is in foiling conditions the foiler will win.......

[Chris Ostlind]

Originally Posted by Paul B

In fact, you can have a "C class" of any type, Monohull, kite board, proa, trimaran, quadramaran, etc.

You have stated the rules for the ICCA, but that is only an offshoot of what a C class can be. You can't sail your C Class Trimaran in the ICCA events, but you could hold the Speed Sailing record for the C Class in one.

A through D classes are defined by sail area.

I get the hairsplitting thing, Paul. If we loosen-up the definition of the C-Class Catamaran design rules to a more global interpretation, why not just let them be, oh... "Any Boat in the World rules and then further relax things so that they are open to any sail area you'd like to bring?

Yes, I'm exaggerating to make the point. C-Class cats by the definitions of their organization have their own specific rules. End of story, really, though I do see your broader argument.


Here's Clark's first response to Doug when he made his desperate proposal on Sailing Anarchy back in March of last year:
http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/ind...opic=69592&hl=


"Doug, Our first rule is that the boat has to be a catamaran.
Unnecessary type forming? perhaps, but I would say that opening the rule to other configurations would be a fundamental change, not a minor change.
So the short answer is no.
There are many longer answers that would have to do with making more advanced calculations and studies of the speed potential of your proposed boat.
If you build such a boat, it will be very interesting to sail against it. We can't call it the I4C but that doesn't mean that an alternate challenge couldn't be made.
Build it and I will race against you.
SHC"


Then, after more departures from topic by Doug; Clark jumped-in a couple of days later with this bit:

"I have been beaten on paper and in the parking lot thousands of times.
What turns this kind of banter into a sport is the actual sailing around the race course."


After Clark and fellow C-Class racer, Fredo invited Doug to build his dream machine and race both of them openly, Doug had this to say:

"Its almost an offer I can't refuse.....I have what I hoped for at this stage thanks to the C Class guys. I don't want to see the rules changed at this point...


Then, well-known foiler and foil craft designer, Doug Culnane dropped-in and hit Doug with this rather poignant missive:

"You can talk yourself into changing the C-Class cats with one of your designs but everyone knows you will never have the balls to build it and race these guys.

This is like me challenging NASA to a race round the moon, and them accepting the challenge. You must be thinking what I would be thinking. Ooops! I have to build a thing of which I have only ever seen pictures of and take it into an environment where I have no real experience...

Time to run way Doug and start a new thread and pretend this did not happen."


Doug kept spewing and foaming-on with regular postings of irrelevant numbers and then came this post:

"C Class Monofoiler
blah, blah, blah, specs and then this bit...
Mainfoil area: 2.93 sq.ft.(take off profile same as Moth-or better with variable geometry main foil*)

*Being tested on my new foiler later this year as removable foil tips." (as in last year...2008, so where's this wonder boat? (my addition)


It was after another run of pointless postings of yet more of the same photos, spec sheets going nowhere and just pure simplicity of thought that Steve Clark jumped-in with this gem:

"Slight change to the Declaration of Independance:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Loose Shoes and a Warm Place to Shite."
Only a minor change....
SHC "


So, we clearly see that Doug's idea of a small modification to existing C-Class Cat rules so that he can further pontificate about a boat that will never be built has been met with derision by the guy who has absolutely dominated the C-Class Cats for many, many years.

Make your own conclusions, of course and on your way out, don't forget to drink the Kool-Aid that Doug has so kindly provided at the front door.

This is bound to happen: the Moth has proved so fast against all the multihulls it has raced against from Hobies to the A Class to F 18's there is no doubt that someone will want to knock off the C Class cats. Doing so with a boat that as the power to weight ratio identical to a Moth is not only feasible its not that much of a stretch-there is already a 26' foiler that fits that description. Ideally,a two boat program would be necessary with plenty of time to work up the technology. Damn, it would be so cool!

See Gary Bagents "sort of C Class" trimaran foiler concept here:
Oh my, oh my!!
------------------
R Class TV Video----For those that haven't seen this yet do yourself a favor and take a look: http://www.3news.co.nz/High-hopes-In...ult.aspx#video

[Paul B]

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

This is bound to happen: blah blah blah

Only a loon would think a C Class foiler was "bound to happen."

There is no venue to sail such a craft, so why would anyone build one?

Why would someone spend the requisite number of fun tickets to fund such a program? The Canucks reportedly spent a very large amount chasing the ICCC trophy. Some would say a crazy amount of filthy lucre. At least they had a prize worth chasing.

Or did they? They were no longer sailing for the "Little America's Cup". That award had been hijacked away years before...