New High Performance Monofoilers

[bistros]

Originally Posted by sigurd

thanks!

Vel bekomme (although you may not see this now!)

--
Bill

[sigurd]

i do! i have become good at skipping fast over text so i doubt i will need the ignore! i can usually tell in the first line whether it is worth reading, if not then i check one or two paragraphs further down to see if i am right.

Check out the Full Force site for prices etc. But notice the picture below with the foils RETRACTED sitting on a beach dolly! Not likely to see many Moths doing this.. http://www.fullforceboats.com/

[Guest625101138]

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

Check out the Full Force site for prices etc. But notice the picture below with the foils RETRACTED sitting on a beach dolly! Not likely to see many Moths doing this.. http://www.fullforceboats.com/

Now that it getting closer to something I could see myself launching from the beach. Still a concern about hitting something a bit solid though when flying.

[Gary Baigent]

Hit anything at speed in whatever you are sailing be it mono, multi, foiler or any other configuration - and invariably you're going to working late in the repair shop. Although admittedly, the higher the speed, the more quantities of epoxy and carbon will be required for reparation. Everyone knows this - it's not just the domain of foilers.

[Guest625101138]

Originally Posted by Gary Baigent

hey Rick
Hit anything at speed in whatever you are sailing be it mono, multi, foiler or any other configuration - and invariably you're going to working late in the repair shop. Although admittedly, the higher the speed, the more quantities of epoxy and carbon will be required for reparation. Everyone knows this - it's not just the domain of foilers.

You clearly have not sailed in the same crowd I have. I know at least two salty sea dogs who lived on boats and got roped into joining the Sunday race fleet. Their response to a "starboard" call was simply to reply with a "steel" call.

These boats were on opposite side of the country at different times in my sailing experience but both skippers had the same attitude to sailing and similiar boats. Neither boat would come off second best after tangling with a container, whale, dugong or other flotsam.

It is clear to me that many modern designs have not adequately addressed this fundamental issue. I have experienced many groundings and consider it unavoidable. Sure you like to be traveling slow if the risk is high but that is not always the case either.

Boats can be designed to survive a heavy hit. I have experienced high speed groundings in a planing power boat. Even tangled with a decent log that caused minor prop damage.

The faster they go the better the design needs to be to counter the problem. I don't think the problem is given enough thought.

New(re-mixed) video of RS600ff:
http://www.inqbator.org.uk/Default.a...org.uk/rs600ff

[Chris Ostlind]

Originally Posted by Gary Baigent

Hit anything at speed in whatever you are sailing be it mono, multi, foiler or any other configuration - and invariably you're going to working late in the repair shop. Although admittedly, the higher the speed, the more quantities of epoxy and carbon will be required for reparation. Everyone knows this - it's not just the domain of foilers.

I love that you keep saying this, ignoring the facts of foiling's expense should the issue arise... and eventually, it will arise.

Take a quick look at the replacement price for a set of Moth foils, just for laughs. Now, look at the same replacement for a single daggerboard from a high perf beach cat. Everyone also should know this.... the cost is through the roof for the Moth compared to other boats for the same incident.

The higher the speed... (and haven't we been assailed by the higher speed issue since it arrived?) does make for bigger damage, so the numbers one sees on the Moth parts page are just the beginning of the horror to one's pocketbook.

You simply have to pay to play and it's not going away just because thinking of other things is more comfortable.

Despite the enormous dangers and burgeoning cost of all the smashed Moth foils the class remains one of the fastest growing dinghy classes around. And new classes like the RS 600FF,R Class, Tomahawk and inumerable individual foiler projects are tooling up to meet a huge demand for foils that are surely to be destroyed. What keeps these people coming back when faced with a such a sure demise of their investment?? Huh?!
Yes, it is,say it again-

[Chris Ostlind]

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

Despite the enormous dangers and burgeoning cost of all the smashed Moth foils the class remains one of the fastest growing dinghy classes around. And new classes like the RS 600FF,R Class, Tomahawk and inumerable individual foiler projects are tooling up to meet a huge demand for foils that are surely to be destroyed. What keeps these people coming back when faced with a such a sure demise of their investment?? Huh?!
Yes, it is,say it again-

Funny stuff, Douglas.

Fastest growing.. hmmm, isn't that a relative term? As in, compared to a relative percentage of the boats actually made to this point?

It goes something like this when you choose to use relative terms to boast about the growth of something.

Example: The Mormon (LDS) religion claims to be the fastest growing on the planet. (sound familiar?) Numbers worldwide?... 13 million, or so. Compare that to the numbers of followers of Islam at 1.3 billion and the Mormon claims look pretty darn puny. Geez, Doug, the Muslims have more babies in any given year than there are Mormons in total.

Your "huge demand" is all based on flimsy supposition... and you know it. There's absolutely no proof whatsoever, that there is anything like "HUGE" demand for any foiler... ever. Go get your head clear and look at the sales figures for a truly simple and rugged boat such as the O'pen BIC. Compare total foiler sales to something as innocuous as the Hobie Adventure Island SOT trimaran. Hobie introduced that boat two+ years ago and they had 500 units sold before the boat was even publicly introduced. Sales have continued apace since then. I bet that there are barely 500 foilers of all types in existence, if there are that many.

When you have your reality button engaged, you can get back to us.

And yes, $5000 bucks will always be a big number to swallow for cranked foil replacement. For that much money, you can just about buy a Hobie Adventure Island AND an O'pen BIC. Is that clear enough for you?

[bistros]

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

Despite the enormous dangers and burgeoning cost of all the smashed Moth foils the class remains one of the fastest growing dinghy classes around. And new classes like the RS 600FF,R Class, Tomahawk and inumerable individual foiler projects are tooling up to meet a huge demand for foils that are surely to be destroyed. What keeps these people coming back when faced with a such a sure demise of their investment?? Huh?!
Yes, it is,say it again-

Doug, please take the red pill and you'll wake up in the real world, just like Neo did. You've been taking the blue pill so long, your whole grasp of the meaning of words is warped.

The Moth as one of the fastest growing classes? Don't think so. The are more Lasers sold in a week than there are Moths sold in a year. Yes, it has gained notoriety and is showing life signs, but it is hardly one of the fastest growing classes.

New classes? The more or less dead RS600 gets a set of foils added and it isn't burning any sales records up. Full Force aren't exactly getting to ring the bell at the New York Stock Exchange.

R-Class boats are a local class in the southwest Pacific that have transitioned a few boats to foils - that doesn't exactly make it an international success.

The Tomahawk is a prototype being trolled through trade shows to see about interest - I doubt Ovington's have got three hundred on the build schedule. I'd be surprised if there are more than two or three in existence.

Innumerable foiler projects? Bet you could count them all on your fingers and maybe need a toe or two if you were being honest and weeded out the old, the never-repeated and the failures.

Foiling is cool, but the whole marketplace could not keep up to the number of Sunfish from the 70s and 80s still on the water today. Bet there are a hundred times are more Optis than foilers.

Take the red pill, Morpheus has been looking for you. I don't doubt your enthusiasm for one minute, but your grasp of reality is seriously in doubt.

Cheers,

Bill

Saying the same thing over and over again doesn't make it true. It just makes you look unbalanced.

[Paul B]

Originally Posted by bistros

The Moth as one of the fastest growing classes? Don't think so. The are more Lasers sold in a week than there are Moths sold in a year. Yes, it has gained notoriety and is showing life signs, but it is hardly one of the fastest growing classes.

Careful there Bill.

I own a little book called How To Lie With Statistics. It can be useful at times. This is a common way to make something less significant seem more significant.

If there were 2 modern Moths in the US three years ago, and now with foils there are 12, well that's a an increase of 6x. That's a pretty "fast growth" for a sailing class during that time period, statistically speaking.

Even though more Lasers might be sold every week than foiling Moths in a year's time, the Moth "growth" far exceeds the Laser "growth", on a percentage basis.

So something can easily be "the fastest growing" anything, yet still be insignificant compared to a total population. "Fastest growing sailboat dinghy class" can easily be insignificant compared to the total population of sailing dinghies.

[bistros]

Originally Posted by Paul B

Careful there Bill.

I own a little book called How To Lie With Statistics. It can be useful at times. This is a common way to make something less significant seem more significant.

If there were 2 modern Moths in the US three years ago, and now with foils there are 12, well that's a an increase of 6x. That's a pretty "fast growth" for a sailing class during that time period, statistically speaking.

Even though more Lasers might be sold every week than foiling Moths in a year's time, the Moth "growth" far exceeds the Laser "growth", on a percentage basis.

So something can easily be "the fastest growing" anything, yet still be insignificant compared to a total population. "Fastest growing sailboat dinghy class" can easily be insignificant compared to the total population of sailing dinghies.

Agreed. Growth numbers need to be relevant in terms of the total market to be worthwhile, not just in comparison to the previous years position.

Thanks for pointing out my statistical thin ice.

--
Bill

[steele m.a.]

I'm working on a monohull in Victoria that is assymetric when heeled ,
symmetric when upright.25' x 30' , 620 sq. ft. of sail .
markalfredsteele@yahoo.ca

From Simon Payne-great moth sailor:
'The Moth scene in the UK is not very active right now because it’s about minus six degrees, but it’s growing. My home club Hayling Island has got fourteen moths there now. We don’t have the depth of some of the Olympic sailors like Nathan and Charlie McKee in the US who are coming into the class quite yet, but that’s because team GBR is a pretty intense place to be right now.

'Nathan Outteridge is a professional sailor, and you can see how good he is out there. It’s wonderful for the Moth class to have people like Nathan coming into it. It’s a privilege for people like me to race against him. He’s a class act, and he’ll go far.

Five years ago the Moth class was full of people with beards tinkering in the garage and making stuff in the kitchen, and look at it now. It just makes you feel great that we’re one of the premier dinghy classes at the moment.'