New Design for a 17' Daysailer/Racer

You know I don't know you but based on you're obnoxious comments I'm begining to.Making personally directed comments in an effort to ridicule new ideas because you don't understand them is a shame. You have no idea what you're talking about but seem perfectly willing to criticize what you obviously don't understand. The kFOIL™ is newly patented but is being tested now ; the basic concept of using wings as lateral resistance has been very successful on Andy Dovells boat and a couple of others.
The comment about my foiler is equally asinine;I've designed and manufactured the worlds first production rc foiler (see the F3 under multihulls on http://www.microsail.com ) My 16 footer( see http://www.monofoiler.com ) has suffered for not having much testing time but it is now being developed by a new
company of which I am part as is a new 12' "peoples foiler". To make disparaging comments about boats you know NOTHING about is really bizzare-maybe you should join the Migghetto thread. You seem to be two of a kind.

I imagine that every sports yacht would love to get in a tacking duel with a canted keel sports yacht. The duel would last maybe 2 tacks.... Compare a roll tacking sports yacht to some of the ideas here.

Hell - I'd go out of my way and do it to them for fun!


I won't even mention mark roundings..

Brett

I think it's likely the Performance 17 would handle any course with the best of any fixed keel boats its size and would roll tack just as well. And it would probably be substantially faster given an 8' overall beam, narrow waterline and a powered 5' 55° canting keel that moves the ballast 4' to weather!
It can be done and done at reasonable cost using only off the shelf components for the canting mechanics. The canting trunk can be lighter ,stronger and much easier to build than a "normal" system.
This all assumes that the boat is very well designed and engineered...
It's a cool concept that has the potential of redefining what a "keelboat" can do...

[Paul B]

Brett, if you're going to scoff at this all-conquering technology you need to drop more names and use more slogans like ***** (TM).

Some people like us just can't understand that the be-all and end-all of sailing only includes 2 things; foiling and canting keels.

My 28 foot sportboat has trapeze for the crew. I guarantee two things. First, it is faster in this configutation than it would be with a canting keel, with whatever canard or other kookfoil added. Second, it will never get up on foils.

I guess I better just sink the thing.

I apologise for not using more slogans. Will try to address this in future.

"Performance 17" now trademarked under my name...

Besides the mathematic arguements of swinging 100kg to wardward 4ft versus swinging 180kg 4ft to windward (trapezes) (I'm ignoring VCG I know), I could not justify the complications during racing a sportsyacht around the buoys of a canted keel. Long passages are a different story I know.

I find it a little amusing that monohull sailors have found amazing advances in performance by swing a lump of lead to windward. The multihull guys find it totally amusing. (I am in both camps I must admit)

PS. A 5 ft keel on a sportsyacht simply ain't gonna cut it. Add another foot at least. (We run 7ft plus draft on a 24'6")

[Paul B]

"Performance 17" now trademarked under my name..." Damn, beat me to it.


"PS. A 5 ft keel on a sportsyacht simply ain't gonna cut it. Add another foot at least. (We run 7ft plus draft on a 24'6")"

Here's where you've let down again (I've missed the same opportunity). You need to drop the name of the guy who designed your boat, as in, "We run 7 ft plus on a 24'6" Thompson, and it's been agreed to be best by Farr, Davidson, ..."


Seriously, I think a 17 foot "Daysailor/Racer" would be just fine with a 5 foot draft. It's probably a good bit more than many of the other boats of this type currently available. There is a point of diminishing return with regard to draft, wetted area, and aspect ratio.

I could have dropped the name of the designer here, but I prefer to keep my full name to myself.

I like the term agreed to be the "best by Farr" - made me smile.

Some might go for five feet, I'm thinking six (with bulb) but this only one poor guys opinion.

Brett

[Tactic]

Heres a little something I have been working on.
Not quite a sports boat...but should be fun anyway.

4.7m long
820mm wide
310kg total displ incl sailor.
130kg bulb
8.5m2 sail area.

Ideal for tactical racing( hence the name)..age and ability no barrier.
Sort of a swept up version of the International 2.4m class.


Cheers
Brett (New Zealand)

[jonc]

Tactic, I like your design. I was thinking about something like it some time ago. Do you have some plans to see?. Have you think about the construction and materials? Thanks

Brett(NZ), it looks good-any progress toward building?

Brett, (AU) I think the Moth shows the direction of monohull technology very well. The
11' Foiler Moth is already faster than the 18' A class catamaran off the wind and is "catching up" upwind according to A Class sailors on the Australian A class forum.
Taking that technology one step further will be a canting keel "sportboat" that will have a retractable main foil just ahead of the canting keel and a rudder T-foil like the Moth. Different than the Moth,of course, is the canting keel but that will have a flap on the lower end of the fin that will allow the boat to develop more RM when on foils and allow the maximum ballast to be reduced even further. This type of boat should be faster than "normal" multihulls it's size when on foils. The idea,as you round the windward mark, is to pop the spin AND the main foil and take off-literally..
A bit much for the Performance 17(™™) I must admit but new technology that is being worked on NOW...

[Paul B]

Originally Posted by Lorsail

Brett, (AU) Taking that technology one step further will be a canting keel "sportboat" that will have a retractable main foil just ahead of the canting keel and a rudder T-foil like the Moth. Different than the Moth,of course, is the canting keel but that will have a flap on the lower end of the fin that will allow the boat to develop more RM when on foils and allow the maximum ballast to be reduced even further.

..and an unstayed canting wingmast, water ballast for fore/aft trim, scalloped foils that look the a Humpback whale's fins, rubber bladder hull and foils to change symmetry tack-to-tack...

Hey, how about floatation tanks filled with hydrogen gas ("Hindenberg Tanks TM") so the boat will really "float"?


Isn't it possible that a nice, simple, straight forward two hander might fit the design brief?


Back when I worked in the sailing industry, before the internet, I would get letters periodically from a looney who wanted us to fund the construction of his "Bullet Arc" hull design. Guaranteed to sail at 30 knots in 20 knots of wind, with the dimensions and weight of an IOR 50 footer of the time. His "contract" had a disclaimer about this guarantee. For a couple of years I got letters every few months proclaiming the greatness of the "Bullet Arc" design, along with other fancy names for "special" sailplans, keels, etc, which he claimed were reviewed by many prominent people. Loads of name dropping and Patent claims.

Soon afterward we read in the newspaper that this looney was some 40-something guy who still lived at home with his mother and was subsequently arrested, convicted, and incarcerated for stalking Katerina Witt, the Olympic Figure skater.

Why would this thread make me think about that?

Paul B, you're a real piece of work with a very limited grasp of whats going on at the leading edge of sailboat design.
Your proclivity to couch your ignorance and doubt in thinly veiled personal attacks is disturbing and pitiful.
It's unfortunate that you are only able to critisize- in a most ignorant manner -rather than offer something that would fit the original post in this thread and actually be a contribution.
Like I said before-you belong in the Mighetto thread where ignorance(such as yours)is bliss!!!

[SLC]

Hi Cleve,
Let me ask you a question:
What are you really looking for ?? Some ideas about the design you want to get or someone who are willing to seriously study and design the boat you want ?

If your answer is the last one, I really would like to help you.

Some ideas (like canting keel, etc) could be good or not, sometimes an innovation could also be great but for any reason not fit in the boat you have in mind.
Every design should be carefully studied as a whole thing and the designer should try to fulfill the owners requirements in order to make sure the boat will work as the owner has expected.

Please, let me know what your answer to my question is.

SLC.-

SLC beat me to it. The arguements that have developed on this thread have very little to do with cleve's requirements of a simple and quick daysailer for 2.

If you really want to have a go at this I can help. Not for free though, I make my living from boat/yacht design. If you want to know more, we can take the conversation elsewhere.

Brett