New Cabrillo Skiff Design for Kids

But if we say "a skiff is just a boat" then we lose a term that has, for decades, denoted a particular type of boat IN THE CONTEXT OF A FAST CENTREBOADER.

Surely the use of the term "skiff" in this context isn't trying to give it the pizzaz of the older boats or powerboats in the pics posted; surely it's trying to give a boat the connotation of being a baby along the lines of a 49er, 29er, I-14 or 18.

If Chris just wanted people to think "Cabrillo Skiff, wow that must be a powerboat or something like a Cotuit Skiff or a Westray Skiff, or a rowboat" then I was out of order and I apologise.

If, on the other hand, he wanted people to think "Cabrillo Skiff, hmm that sounds like one of those cool fast sailing boats that are called skiffs", then it's different.

The term "skiff" was not used (outside of 4 specific classes), as far as I found in hundreds of hours searching through most copies of Yachting, One Design and Offshore Yachtsman/SW, Sail, Sailing, Yachts and Yachting, YM, YW, etc from about 1950 to 1995, as a label for a high-performance sailboat.

I've spoken to most of the world's top dinghy and skiff designers, read enough original source material to know how the world's first international class was partly inspired by a blow-up raincoat; how the Moth's beam related to an Austin A40 sedan; how the term "skiff" for their boats turned some of the 1930s 18 Footer racers of Sydney apoplectic with indignation. I've corresponded with those studying dinghy history in Scandanavia, France, the USA, NZ, the UK; with professional historians and professional marketers.

Frankly, along with a couple of Kiwis I'm damn sure we've done a shitload more research on this sort of stuff than anyone.

There is no high-performance sailboat class called "skiff" in any of the many class and handicap listings I have found from the '40s to the '90s (apart from 4 specific classes). The evidence is strong that no one (apart from 4 specific classes) used the term for high performance centreboarders for decades until it became cool about '95.

Even boats with a very similar design heritage to those 4 specific classes (Ie Bermuda Dinghies) did not use the term. Sure, there were Westray Skiffs (1 club in the world), a few Cotuit Skiffs, before WW1 there was the Canadian Skiff Association (which seems to have dropped the Skiff term by 1918) and there was a pre-ww1 "Malta skiff club". There were St Lawrence Skiffs, but are you really claiming the O'pen has a link to this big canoe that died long ago?

There were four high-performance Aus classes where the term was adopted as part of the class name. It had a convoluted history even there.

You can plot the primary characteristics of these boats easily. These boats have higher righting moment for length than any dinghy of their era; they have higher SA for their length than any dinghy of their era. They are utterly unique, utterly characteristic.

Despite the Skiff-fanatics' BS (which I post against as vehemently as I am now) Skiffs were NOT always the fastest boats (far from it), they did NOT have the mosst open rules (far from it), they were NOT the most progressive. But they did have specific design characteristics that no other class had, and that can be shown on a diagram of ratios.

When these characteristics were then adopted by UK builders in de-tuned ODs that boasted of their skiff heritage, the "skiff" label, almost never used in performance dinghy sailing, became popular. Now 14 sailors call their boats "Skiffs" a lot of the time - in contrast, until recently the official 14 history (and apparently 14 sailors) referred to the 14 foot Aussie class as "Skiffs" and I-14s as dinghies.

If you are right, and the term "skiff" as used in modern performance centreboarders did not come from the Aussie classes, then please provide a few examples of the term in use in such context before 1995.

I'm not a Skiffy, and I fight against their idea that "skiff" is an utterly fixed term. But why destroy a term that has a specific meaning in this context by applying it to almost anything that floats? Why turn English into a mess of marketing BS?

And why downgrade sailing racing dinghies, a proud line of craft that has often created faster boats than the Skiffs, by applying the "skiff" label as an adjective?

If you want to label all new and exciting boats skiffs, people may start thinking dinghies are old and cruddy, and that will really hurt the sport.

 

But many have thought that for 100 years already, likely one of the reasons to call 49ers and such "skiffs."

 

Meanwhile, back on topic ....

I didn't mean to be the one starting the "skiff" debate avalanche down the hill yet again. I think this design is brilliant, and I would build one if it was called the Taliban Tanker. Chris, as soon as you've got something to post, let me know. I'd like if possible to get hold of dxf files to send to my local CNC shop, and I would be more than willing to execute non-disclosure / non-compete agreements if that provides security.

Take lots of progress shots during the building process, and I'll help put together an assembly manual.

Stitching the panels together on another project I was helping on, I learned how to spot heat the copper wires enough to pull them out of the inside fillets, so none of the wire was retained in the build.

I've just finished figuring out how to hang my single hander from the roof of my garage so I can still fit two cars in while retaining some work space. All I need now is a wide carpet strap for the hull and some cheap blocks.

 

Has anybody on this thread really looked at Ostlind's design? I'm struck by the apparent lack of attention to the side decks-you know-where the crew sits. Sure there are older designs with sharp narrow decks - but they are a ***** to hike from.
Pix-ostlinds boat and the rounded fairly wide decks of the Bic and another similar sized boat:

 

It really doesnt look any worse than the Bic, glue some Foam/deck grip over it and its no different.

 

No problem, Bill, the agreements will be on a man to man basis. Your commitment to the sport through your own new boat, speaks volumes. I'm looking forward to seeing your son out there banging it with the Old Man at the windward mark. You know he's going to beat you one of these days and you'll just get to smile as he blows by you on the water.

I gotta tell ya.... that's one of the coolest feelings that a Dad can ever have. It's a fundamental passage of time and place that is absolutely timeless in its gift for all the things you have done for him. He'll come back to you one day in his 20's, long after he has finished thinking you are a total dick, and he'll tell you what a great Dad you are and have always been. If you are lucky, he'll pass through the "dick phase" and you'll be unscathed.

My best to you,

 

With a fortuitous degree of timing on the matter suggested by Doug Lord above... The "Ostlind; what do you think you're doing designing a boat with obvious design flaws?"

To answer that question, I give you this link to Eric Sponberg's info packed site: http://www.sponbergyachtdesign.com/SC40News.htm Eric just posted this info today at this link:
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sailboats/big-challenge-24699.html Here you will see a lovely boat that is in the development stage of its maturation, prior to being built.

Perhaps the most appropriate quote from the URL given is as follows: "This is an on-going design, and more details will be forthcoming as it progresses. Stay tuned." Clearly, Eric has seen fit to recognize that boat design is an evolutionary process and is open to adjustments all along the development cycle.

Perhaps this design function connection, as illustrated by the work of a highly regarded Naval Architect, will allow Doug the room to move to a full understanding?

 

hiking pants.

 

You know after reading Doug's post I kept thinking about my days hiking in different dinghies, and my years teaching sailing (I did it for a long time in lots of different boats). While the Bic looks more comfortable, in actual use it will be no more comfortable than Chris's rendering. When hiking out the kid's legs aren't going to follow the nicely curved decks, and it's really the turn of the gunwale were the "rubber meets the road".



So frankly from my point of view there probably not need to be a lot of tweaking here. Look at a lot of photos of the Bic, the side deck is not that wide, particularly as you move aft.
Just my 2 cents.

 

There's another issue here, too, Tabman.

A 10 year old kid's butt is absolutely microscopic compared to that of a typical chunky Dad. Where Doug might see real pain in the butt issues, the kid sees a perfectly logical ledge on which to camp-out for the ride.

The rail width is relative to those sailing the boat and if its a performance style craft, there isn't a lot of styling around with soft drinks in the kid's hand. These little dudes are trying to get it on.

 

Yup, good point. In addition in really light air it will be easier to "scoot their butts" up and down the straight sides to balance the boat. Small point to be sure but still valid. Of course the straight incline is tons easier to build in ply, and as others have pointed out making this a parent and child project is literally priceless.

Keep up the good work Chris, even though my daughter needs to sail in a different type of boat due to a handicap, I would have loved to build one of these with her!

 

My Opinion

Hello...

Here is my opinion - for those of you that have not chosen to 'ignore list' me - or black list me - or other...

It all looks good - but - leave it as an open class - restricted sail and foils - if it is going to be built by dads and kids - let them have at the hiking staps - maybe maximum beam allowing winged bunks like the old Moths - mods to the interior but not the hullform - and an all up weight restriction...

Those little brains will come up with killer ideas - drive Dad mad...

Dad if I mow the lawn and walk the dogs - can we get a roll of Carbon and some pipes...

Sorry - I am fond of open class - hated when the 12 meters went IACC...

Let the kids develop the class and the boat into a 'tweaker' - leads to a lot of group beach kids having it out - idea bashing and maybe some future N/A's or other - or a bunch of future beach bum real estate developers...

Looks golden - small is hard...

Chris - if you want to shut the pundits up you could easily redesign for 'rubber ply' - kerfed both sides on an inner skin - hard to find outside of common marine suppliers though - no coumpound curves - go 505 - on the interior - BUT - if you leave that out of the restrictions - the kids will make it their own eventually anyway...

Hope that made some sense...

Well - time to take my wife out to dinner - explain why moving motors the size of couches puts me to sleep by 7...

Last thought - I hope - you are getting into a highly saturated and competive market here - BUT - that said - when the IOC made the Laser Olympic - an otherwise cheap cartopper - (albeit a one design) - fell out of the financial reach of most kids - if you push something they can build with and against their friends - you are looking at restoring the old spirit of - AHEM - dinghy racing - Jack Holt and Uffa Fox will roll back onto their backs in their graves for your effort...

See - http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgu...&prev=/images?q=holt+enterprise&as_st=y&hl=en ...

SH.

 

Reworked Design... a bit

Hey Guys,

I've done some fiddling on the Cabrillo Skiff design in my spare time and here's what I've done to the boat:

I have widened the aft side decks just a bit. While the changes are not really very radical, they are wider. I figure that most of this will be addressed by each individual sailor as they tweak their boats to suit their own preferences. We'll probably see a nice use of adhesive backed neoprene, or maybe even some color keyed, indoor/outdoor carpeting along the rails as the boats are modified for best comfort and rail edge radius.

The forward deck has been raised, as have all the joining surfaces that relate to the foredeck height. All the primary curves, as well as the resulting swept surfaces have been checked for fairness, and developability (nice word, huh?)

The new deck height does a bunch of things for the boat.

1. Water will be shed much easier

2. Forward areas of the boat will see enhanced buoyancy

3. Interior deck surfaces will have a slightly greater drainage angle for shipped water

4. The mast pocket is deeper, providing a much better level of support.

There is now a "Turbo" rig option for the Cabrillo, complete with a carbon bow sprit from a windsurf mast section, making it a pretty economical adaptation. The new, larger main is 80 sq. ft. with a spinnaker that is just under 60 sq. ft. in area. The larger main should provide a real power difference on a boat this size. The spinnaker is on the kinda tame side of the equation, as this is a training boat and its real mission is to give the new sailor the feel and handling issues of a faster skiff, while not making the ride so zany that it becomes a real problem. The transition should be comfortable and a fairly simple adjustment for the young sailor.

Save for the slightly scaled-down spinnaker, this rig is pretty much the same setup that I have used on a multihull trainer I designed, the SOLO12. There's a rendering of that boat shown below, should anyone have any interest in that side of sailing.

The mast for the breathed-on Cabrillo is stiffened with shrouds, as well as the forestay holding the spinnaker. There is also an option to include trap wires for the kid who wishes to take things to the next level.

I figure that this boat will need to have a skipper of right around 140 lbs. to handle the Turbo'd boat in 14 knots of breeze. That opens the potential sailing audience to a pretty wide bunch of people. I was asked some time ago just how much could the boat handle in weight. The answer is that the Cabrillo has been designed with displacement figure of 250 lbs. Remove the boat's all-up weight and you'll pretty much max-out at just over 150 lbs. for the crew.

As always, I would enjoy hearing your comments and questions about the boat.

 

Nice Try...

Hello...

See how I did that - try vs. tri - always thinking...

Have you seen my vain attempt at utter weirdness...

The Gecko 14 - with a Ruel Parker inspired rig - imagine going turtle in this puppy with the hatch shut - that is what God made cordless skill saws for...

Not hi jacking your thread - just love trimarans...

See http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/10020/size/big/cat//ppuser/3673 ...

Nice job on both boats...

SH.

 

That's why "they" invented the plunge cut...

No problem, Sean. I did open the door and since I, too, have a serious Jones for the breed, you'll always be welcome to bust the comfy chat.

Actually, I do like this canopied cruiser of yours. It's very much in the continuous flow of the other stuff, such as the ME-109 tri, you've done along these lines.

Thanks, Sean.

Chris