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  #61  
Old 06-18-2006, 08:52 AM
Doug Lord
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[quote=Doug Lord]Now, that's a pretty little boat but I'm afraid the price range is the best thing about it-but definitely not the bang for the buck. It's 9' long and weighs 143 pounds-thats more than a Laser! With about half the sail area! Do you really think that will capture the interest of today's young sailor wannabe's? A boat with the same weight as a Laser will be hard for the target market to handle on the beach ,wouldn't you think? For around the same price a kid can get into windsurfing where not only will he/she learn the basic forces acting on a sailboat by feeling them he/she will get to go really fast in winds over about 10-12 knots. Not only that but included in the price would be top notch instruction and maybe a summer camp. I think a kid would do well to be able to learn on a windsurfer and then graduate to a modern foiler Moth; see what Andrew McDougall(long time Moth builder, sailer and sailmaker) says about who can sail his new Bladerider:
International Foiler Moth - Bladerider
Address:http://www.kasail.com/sailing/bladerider.html Changed:11:41 PM on Monday, June 5, 2006
Note that the hull weight of a Bladerider (or Prowler) is UNDER 22 pounds(allup: around 66lb.s-less than half of the Bic) and that the Moth is
primarily a light persons boat. Easy to move around on the beach, retractable foils(according to McDougall) and I wouldn't be surprised to see removable buoyancy pods introduced as time goes by.
While the windsurfer can really move as
the wind picks up NOTHING on the planet can do what a Moth can in light air: McDougall says that with the larger 9mē sail the Bladerider will take off in 5 knots of wind and do 14 knots boatspeed!!(see first question under "General Enquiries":
KA Sail Australia - Bladerider FAQ's
Address:http://www.kasail.com/sailing/faqs.html Changed:9:53 PM on Monday, June 5, 2006 )
Thats waaaay before a board will plane or a cat fly a hull-and that, my friend, will definitely capture the interest of the sailing youngsters I'm familiar with.
I'm afraid Bic is a little late with their offering; even though the price is outstanding I just don't think it will cut it in this day and age..."
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Those that think the Bic is a good way to capture teenagers interest in sailing are living in fantasy land-it has even less performance than a Laser and is heavier-you've got to be kidding!
I think(and am not alone) that teaching sailing in high performance boats/windsurfers is an excellent way to show kids what is possible and allow a transition into boats like a foiler Moth. I'm certainly not for doing away with the Optimist end of youth sailing instruction(necessarily) -just supplementing it with windsurfing instruction and fascilitating a transition into state of the art high performance boats like a foiler Moth.
This is from a sailing school: " Of course windsurfing requires a higher dedication and effort but this said, at Funtastic we think that the simultaneous learning and practicing of both sports-sailing and windsurfing, facilitate a bigger and better understanding and provide a more solid theoretical knowledge of sailing in general".
With the exciting, thrilling "extreme" options available to kids nowadays the only hope for sailing is to capture their interest by allowing them to experience the high performance aspects of sailing at an early age.
------------
Heres a somewhat interesting discussion on the Aussie Moth forum:
Australian Moth Class Association :: View topic - Optimist to Moths
Address:http://www.moth.asn.au/forum/viewtopic.php?t=315
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  #62  
Old 06-18-2006, 09:54 AM
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RHough RHough is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Lord
Those that think the Bic is a good way to capture teenagers interest in sailing are living in fantasy land-it has even less performance than a Laser and is heavier-you've got to be kidding!
I think(and am not alone) that teaching sailing in high performance boats/windsurfers is an excellent way to show kids what is possible and allow a transition into boats like a foiler Moth. I'm certainly not for doing away with the Optimist end of youth sailing instruction(necessarily) -just supplementing it with windsurfing instruction and fascilitating a transition into state of the art high performance boats like a foiler Moth.
This is from a sailing school: " Of course windsurfing requires a higher dedication and effort but this said, at Funtastic we think that the simultaneous learning and practicing of both sports-sailing and windsurfing, facilitate a bigger and better understanding and provide a more solid theoretical knowledge of sailing in general".
With the exciting, thrilling "extreme" options available to kids nowadays the only hope for sailing is to capture their interest by allowing them to experience the high performance aspects of sailing at an early age.
Mr Lord makes it sound like Funtastic has a beginner winsurf/sail program ... when in fact ...

From the same sailing school: "The beginner courses of sailing take place at our center on the beach of Riells, south-east of the town of l'Escala, where the wind and waves conditions are excellent to start. For such courses we have a flotilla of dinghies ideal for beginners: Taz, Topper, RS Feva and Access Dinghies."

Here are links to the boats:
Taz
Topper
RS Feva
Access

Please point out the windsurfer.


They go on to state: "If you already know how to sail, you can rent any of these sailboats, as well as some for more experienced sailors like the Lasers or others with gennaker and trapeze as the RS Feva XL, RS Vision XL and Sport'16. On top of this you also have the RS Veleros test center at your disposal, allowing to try several models of the LDC Racing Sailboats, like the RS 200, RS Vareo, RS 700 as well as the Australian Access Dinghies: Access 2.3, 303, Breeze or Liberty all of them meant to make sailing accessible to everybody. "

Nowhere do they state or imply that basic sailing is taught on windsurfers.

If you look at the spec sheet of the Taz, you will find it is very similar to the One Bic. Not only is there a market, more than one boat is competing for market share. I guess all those people are "living in fantasy land" too ...

Funtastic also packages:

Blue Week Combos

Ski or Wake Board + Sailing.
Ski or Wake Board + Windsurfing.
Ski or Wake Board + combined Sailing and Catamaran.
Ski or Wake Board + Catamaran.
Windsurf + Sailing.
Windsurf + Catamaran.
Sailing + Catamaran.
Water Ski + Wake Board.

Sounds like a fun place to send the kids for a week of peace and quiet at home.
__________________
Proud supporter of The Far Kurnell Cat Racing Team

I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work.
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  #63  
Old 06-18-2006, 09:55 AM
Chris Ostlind Chris Ostlind is offline
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Doug,

Do you have any kids and if so, what are their ages?

Just curious about the source of your knowledge on this matter because it doesn't mesh with any of the experiences that I have with kids.

I've got two kids, a daughter who is 18 and a son who is 16. They've been through the whole route from total beginner/novice to extremely accomplished in several sports over the years. They've done sailing, soccer, rock climbing, snow boarding, skiing, baseball and ultimate frisbee.

My daughter is going off to college in the fall on an academic/soccer scholarship and we've seen it all from PeeWee league to the Olympic Development team.

They both have sailed in boats all their lives and are accomplished solo sailors in a variety of craft. They both ski double black diamond runs and can absolutely smoke me on any mountain.

Throughout all these years of guiding these two kids through their athletic development, they have never once mentioned that they feel as if their sporting lives have been short-changed in the process in any way.

Unfortunately, they have missed the opportunity to hop onto a foiling Moth while spending the next several days of their lives trying to keep it upright so that they can experience the flash of supremacy that is supposed to come with the ride.

The BIC is not the answer to kids getting into sailing? What amount of money do you want to wager that the sales numbers of the BIC boat will quickly eclipse the sales figures for all the Moths ever constructed? My guess is that will happen in the first year of sales and they will not look back.

How much does a Laser cost, Doug? How much for the BIC? Why is Walmart the single biggest retailer in the world, Doug? Big Clue here... It's not because they sell stuff for twice as much as the guy down the street.

How about repairability, or more to the point... the need to have the boat repaired in the first place. Virtually indestructible plastic vs ding and crunch prone fiberglass. Hmmmm, nope, not even close.

There's a dream here, alright. But it isn't about the functional attractiveness of the BIC and its potential in the kid market. The reasons are sound and they have been proven time and again in the sailing marketplace.

By the way... how's it coming on that AeroSkifferoo project? Is that bad boy ready for the water now? It's been, what, 6 months now, since you started shouting about it? I figure that anyone, working even part time on the boat, could have generated the necessary fixes you proposed in order to make it ready for a serious test session in varied conditions.
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  #64  
Old 06-18-2006, 08:15 PM
CT 249 CT 249 is offline
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If we're going to talk teenager's sailing, we should see what kids are actually sailing. Comparing '98 to '05 or '06 (when available) from Yachts and Yachting's latest Nationals Attendance Chart, we see.....

1- Opti. 255 up to 335
2- Topper 137 to 278
3- Radial 74 to 197
4- Cadet 99 to 106
5- Laser 96 to 104
6- RS 200 55 to 101
7- 420 65 ('99, no 98 figure) to 96
8- Mirror 48 to 91 (is now a RYA squad class)
9- RS Feva (heavy simple plastic teen's boat) Didn't exist '98, now 85.
10- Fireball 68 to 84

The actual speed of the classes in the top 10 is actually SLOWER than it was years ago, when boats like the 505 were in the top 10. There is NO discernible trend to fast boats becoming more popular.

There are MORE kids sailing at nationals than there were in the years of the "dinghy boom" as is proven by earlier Y&Y attendance tables. The idea that slow old boats are turning kids off sailing is NOT proven and would be hard to defend.

Some other interesting boats....

49er - 30 boats '98, growing to 36
29er - 17 (its first nationals) to 31 - but actually DROPPING in support once you exclude that first year.
470 - 20 to 14 (indicating that being a RYA supported class isn't enough to create support)
Cherub - 12 to 19 (and rule changes have made it a lot faster - indicating that being a fast, light, fascinating boat doesn't guarantee popularity).
Solo - 50 to 79 (showing that being old and slow can equal popularity even when you have to compete with Lasers).
Int 14 - 72 to 31 (at a time when it has become much faster and adopted foils).

If all teens are adrenalin junkies, why are they sailing Radials and Toppersin vast and increasing numbers and not turning to 29ers and Cherubs in their dozens? Why are Radials and Fevas growing so strongly if teens hate that sort of boat? Either kids and parents are stupid, or the kids actually enjoy the boats.

British Moth (1930s one design version of the Moth) 29 to 31
Europe (1960s version of the Moth) 29 to 28.
RS 300 (similar to one design version of '80s Moth) 22 to 29
Int Moth - 21 to 24

It's hard to see that there is a massive swing to the International Moth, which remains less popular than the slower one designs that grew from it. This is NOT a good thing, it's sad 'cause they are such great boats, but surely it's very significant. The slowest version of the Moth is the most popular! Surely that shows that speed does NOT equal popularity.

It cannot be because the Int. Moth doesn't get publicity or RYA support, because it gets lot of publicity and the British Moth and RS 300 don't seem to get any more support, and the Europe has been dropped from the Games.

The International Canoe has gone a lot faster with the Assymetric added, and numbers have dropped from 43 to 21.

The most popular skiff-type boat, the lovely RS 800, is just NUMBER THIRTY in the ranking of the most popular classes.

The British dinghy scene is the biggest and strongest in the world. Similar trends can be seen in Australia - Laser just had its biggest nationals ever.

There is just no evidence that going faster makes classes more popular. That may not be a good thing, but surely it's something we should recognise.
Blindly following the mantra "more speed will make sailing more popular" has done massive harm to windsurfers, cats and many classes. Surely it's time for us to become much more sophisticated and RECOGNISE THE FACTS!

This isn't meant to be attacking John or other foiler Moth sailors, or their remarkable achievements and boats. It just seems important that discussions about the future of the sport should have some reference to what's really happening.
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  #65  
Old 06-18-2006, 08:36 PM
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usa2 usa2 is offline
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Absolute speed is irrelevant in most sailing. Thats why canting keels have not become commonplace on offshore racers, nor will they. Same with foils. Sailing can afford to let those who so choose dabble in speed adding mechanisms/appendages, but it will not alter the majority of the sailing world.
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  #66  
Old 06-19-2006, 02:27 AM
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frosh frosh is offline
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a REAL bad case of cognitive dissonance!

Hi Doug, Your last posting, is it a loop tape or what? It is not a competition on this forum as to who can repeat themselves the greatest number of times!
Oh- cognitive dissonance. What is that? I will give the the psychologists definition and you can see if you recognize it.
"Cognitive dissonance is a psychological phenomenon which refers to the discomfort felt at a discrepancy between what you already know or believe, and new information or interpretation. It therefore occurs when there is a need to accommodate new ideas, and it may be necessary for it to develop so that we become "open" to them."
You appear to be quite alone in your view that (1) The quickest small dinghy is what we should be pushing to promote sailing to youngsters gradutaing out of junior trainers. Even your sometime defender of the foiling " faith" John Ilett has not come out in support with this one. (2) Windsurfing is an ideal introduction for juniors in preparation for high performance dinghy sailing. (You say that you are not alone in this view: name the other person!)
You believe that kids want thrilling extreme sport experiences; I don't believe you have experience being a Dad to say this. They actually prefer a safe fun experience where they can interact in a normal predictable manner with other kids their own age.
As far as the discussion in the Aust. Moth Forum which you posted it seems to contradict your view strongly and support everyone elses. This is how it starts:
Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2005 8:18 am Post subject: Optimist to Moths

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Do you think a person with alot of experience from optimist and a little of laser and 420 could sail a hydrofoil moth? When i say a little i do mean a little in the laser (like 2 hours tops) and in the 420 around 10 hours.

Thanks

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Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2005 9:53 am Post subject:

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no

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Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2005 12:31 pm Post subject:

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nope. maybe a wide skiff or a scow if you've got some skill and are way to heavy for the oppie. Only really the creme-de-la-creme are on foils at the moment,
Doug, believe me it is not us that is suffering from the above-mentioned psychological condition.
To try and reach a reasonable point of view you need to go through a period of discomfort first on route. I see that you have painted yourself into a corner and there is no door there from which to escape!
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  #67  
Old 06-19-2006, 12:03 PM
Doug Lord
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Condition

Yeah, Frosh, you're always so perceptive-wrong a lot but perceptive: I must have some kind of condition to allow myself to get sucked in to the total hijacking of the "Moth on Foils" thread, which is not about sailing schools-sorry for my small part in the massacre of the original thread-no more.....
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  #68  
Old 06-19-2006, 05:57 PM
Chris Ostlind Chris Ostlind is offline
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I don't get it, man. We're streaming along with a perfectly well-connected discussion and as soon as one of the guys gets his concepts trumped he scuttles off. And this, after he engaged in the expanded discussion along with everyone else.

Hijacked the thread? Really? Like there aren't already a bunch of other threads running about foilers and the various properties thereof? If there's a strict ruling on the concept of the hijack, then I'll fess-up to the dirty deed of taking control of the tiller on the hijacking. I learned it at the youth school of Capt. Jack Sparrow at Hurricane Gulch, California where fast boats and aggressive tendencies abound.

I'm still curious on the larger question, though.

Mr. Lord, do you, in fact, have athletic, watersports oriented kids in the age group we discussed, or having passed through the age group, from which you are drawing your personal experience?

I suspect Lord won't answer this question, so I'll have to assume that a no-answer is the same as a response to the negative on the question as asked. I get jumped by Ilett for not having any driving experience on a foiling Moth (Rave and Trifoiler experience apparently don't qualify) and Lord spends his time hypothesizing about youth sailing programs as they would lead into a Moth-like readiness. I wonder, where's Ilett with his usual questioning about specific relevance when it comes to the Dougster and his positioning? Perhaps it's bad form to jump one of the hype meisters of foiling?

Oh well, and it was a pretty nice discussion up to this point. The proceedings were civil, courtesies were observed and nobody dropped the nasty word bombs you see on other forums.

Nice work guys.

Chris
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  #69  
Old 06-19-2006, 10:21 PM
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frosh frosh is offline
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Condition refuses to heal?

Doug, you are not playing by gentleman's rules to sulk and say that we hijacked your thread. Therefore you will not answer very reasonable and pertinent questions being asked of you. It is also not reasonable of you to fail to admit in this case that you might be wrong! Shame about this as you had an opportunity to earn a small measure of respect from the rest of us, but as usual you never fail to miss an opportunity.
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  #70  
Old 06-20-2006, 02:52 AM
gggGuest gggGuest is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CT 249
If all teens are adrenalin junkies, why are they sailing Radials and Toppersin vast and increasing numbers and not turning to 29ers and Cherubs in their dozens? Why are Radials and Fevas growing so strongly if teens hate that sort of boat? Either kids and parents are stupid, or the kids actually enjoy the boats.
While I don't disagree with your premise that increased speed is not a way to increase popularity, one thing that is clear is that the UK kids are starting competitive sailing younger, swapping to faster boats younger, and dropping out of sailing altogether younger... There are kids who believe that its time to get out of 29ers when you're 18 and they start sailing them at 15. This is an enormous revolution in UK terms. Of course there's nowhere to go from there because you're not going to be able to run a 49er at that age, so I'm not entirely sure all this is a good thing....

So I think that to a fair extent the change in numbers reflects sailors out at younger ages rather than sailors out in slower boats.

Doing some number crunching last year I disovered, incidentally that there is one sure fire way to increase the popularity of a class: increase female participation. In the asymettric two handers there's practically a direct relationship between percentage of female compeitors and number of entries at the Championships. So maybe its not what kids choose to sail, its what girls choose to sail? And this is especially an issue for the more open rule boats because I have noticed that relatively few women sailors get that excited about the more complex areas of boat prep, which tends to be rather a "boys toys" area.
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  #71  
Old 06-20-2006, 06:25 AM
Baronvonrort Baronvonrort is offline
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Here is a moth doing ?knots
Attached Thumbnails
Moth on Foils: 35.9 knots(41.29 mph)-mothswim.jpg  
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  #72  
Old 06-20-2006, 06:41 AM
CT 249 CT 249 is offline
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Interesting. I've gone through some old figures from the Y&Y attendance charts (I have none for the '80s and early '90s) and there does seem to be evidence that the kid's boats were generally less popular (in particular the Opti and Topper).

My gut feeling is that you may be totally right in identifying the gap between the teen's 29er and the expensive 49er, and similar gaps. It hits kids when they're moving out from parental funding nad having to face uni and get cars, doesn't it?

Julian Bethwaite says that Australia has the problem of kids staying in kid's classes too long, as well. But if there's a gap in expense, maybe it's understandable? If you go from mum and dad paying for it to having to buy it yourself, lots of values change!

I must also say your point about the % of women is extremely important, as far as I can see.

So if we could identify the class that has the greatest success in keeping older teens/young adults/young women it may be very important perhaps?

Here it may be the Radial; as you say very few women seem to be interested in development classes. Windsurfing doesn';t have the "hands on" development of some development classes but it still went from about 30% women to a much smaller proportion when it shifted into a gearhead's sport.

The frustrating thing about such theorising is that ISAF etc could and should be looking at these realities, instead they prefer to follow the bulldust route examplified by the report on Olympic classes, where they asked the windsurfing chief and Julian B what route they should take and they got back a report saying (surprise surprise) windsurfers and 49ers and Ts were the way to go. Considering windsurfing is down to 8% of its former level and skiffs aren't all that popular outside NSW, it's hard to see how they can be the future of the sport.
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  #73  
Old 06-20-2006, 01:04 PM
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Stephen Ditmore Stephen Ditmore is offline
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My Moth, under construction, will be rigged and sailed under the "Classic Moth" rules, and is unlikely to sail anywhere near 20 knots. Nevertheless, I've just posted some photos to the gallery, and I invite people to have a look.
http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/sh...=500&ppuser=38
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  #74  
Old 06-20-2006, 04:05 PM
wet feet wet feet is offline
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The thread drift toward an emphasis on the number of regatta participants in training classes ignores the pressure or encouragement applied by National authorities to boost these fleets.Moth sailors are doing it because they want to.The odd breakage is part of the development process and the boats will continue to evolve.If you show a non-sailor a photograph of a foiing Moth and one of a Laser,which loks more spectacular?
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  #75  
Old 06-20-2006, 06:58 PM
CT 249 CT 249 is offline
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1) The first thread on the numbers of boats in championship fleets actually specifically referred to the fact that some classes are supported by authority squads.

2) Looking at figures it's hard to see a direct link between being a squad class and being a popular class. Look at the low support for the Finn, 49er, 470 etc. The Hobie Dragoon, the fastest of the Junior boats, got only 10 boats at the nationals.

Here in the teen's trap boats it seems that the AYF supported 420 and 29er are similar in popularity to the 125 and Cherub which don't get the same support. The Laser Open Men's class (which feeds the squad) has actually DROPPED in popularity over the years - the numbers have been increased by the Masters (who don't get squad support). The Radial class here in Sydney never used to get AYF support but it was still very big and very competitive.

Having said that, the Junior class I'm running is looking for AYF recognition. It won't hurt. It's also a slow class, because this branch of the sport has followed the fast and spectacular route more than any other branch of sailing., and is down to about 8% of what it used to be nationally. The branch of the sport is just starting to realise the error.


Ok the squad seems to help at Junior level but if we're trying to see whether being fast makes boats more popular, we should surely look at those who actually join the RYA Youth classes and go to the nationals.

Fastest boat is the Hobie 16 - 8 entries at the Youth nats.
Second fastest is the RSX board - 17 entries at the Youth nats.
........or the 29er - 33 entries at the Youth nats.
Fourth fastest is the Laser - 38 entries.
Fifth fastest (I think) is the 420- 41 entries.
Slowest (I think) is the Radial - 109 entries.

So even in the RYA nationals, more of the kids actually sail the slower boats! And the Hobie and RSX have probably at least as much corporate backing as the Laser and way more than the 420. It's not even related to age of design.

3) Does a Moth look more spectacular than a Laser? Yes. But what does that mean? Where is the link between looking spectacular and actually attracting bums on boats? A foiling Moth looks more spectacular than a US or French Classic Moth, British Moth, Europe, or NZ Moth, but the old Moths are more popular in each country. None of these classes are supported by the RYA etc are they, so we can take that factor out. None of them has a big builder with big ads, so we can take that out. We're left with the fact that the fabulous modern Int Moth is not more popular than the "boring" old Moths.

An 18 Foot Skiff looks spectacular but very, very few people own one. A windsurfer doing a double loop looks a lot more spectacular than an old longboard drifting on a lake, but more people sailed windsurfers before it was spectacular than sail them today. A 40' tri looks more spectacular than a Farr 40 or Beneteau 40.7, but which is more popular? The current Sydney-Hobart boats are more spectacular than the old IOR boats, but the fleet is down. Sportsboats here are more spectacular than old trailer-sailers, but here the TYs are more popular.

Is there any evidence that looking spectacular actually attracts people to sail? I certainly cannot find any evidence about it.

YA or ISAF surveys have shown that what people puts people off sailing is not any perceived boredom, but fears that it is expensive, elitist and difficult. How does showing a Moth on foils make sailing look less difficult, expensive or elitist?

It's great that Moth sailors sail the boats they want. No-one's doubting they're great boats. But surely if being spectacular increases popularity, there should be SOME evidence to support that belief.
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