Moth on Foils: 35.9 knots(41.29 mph)

Or, it could have virtually no impact at all when the inevitable, next fabulous technology hits the beach and wipes out every foiler in sight. Just like this "infancy technology" showed up, there'll be another... and then another after that. I'd like to know where you stand when that coming wave hits you?

So much for one's reach exceeding one's grasp.

More meaning to the Olympic spirit...? If you are angling at the Citius, Altius, Fortius thing, then why stop at foilers at all? Let's get truly faster, higher and stronger and completely do away with all these sailboats and get it on with rocket powered aircraft. Attention, Elitists of the World.... line up to the right and we'll soon have the beach cleared of all these slow-poke boats so you can taxi your entries.

Hey, you made the argument. I'm just co-opting the position to its logical conclusion. And who said Magnus was eloquent, anyway?

I guess I spoke to soon. This last bit has now taken the title of the biggest reach exceeding the smallest grasp.

 

Doug, I'm sorry I missed your explanation about how the fact that windsurfers have become much LESS popular as they have become faster in top speed is proof that speed sells.

Let's see.....1985, top speed of most popular boards about 25 knots, 1 million sold p.a.

2005, top speed of most popular boards about 35 knots, 80,000 sold p.a.

Please tell me again, without hyperbole, how you can use those figures, which demonstrate that faster boards are in fact much less popular, to demonstrate that speed = popularity.

While we are at it, can you explain how, if speed = popularity, why Stars sell as many as 49ers**; why the unrestricted 18s died; why the 12 Foot Skiff is restricted to three cities in the world; why the Moth went from 180 boats in NSW alone* to some 30 as it became faster; why the Laser Radial is just about the fastest-growing class around; why the rather heavy F18 is so popular compared to the much faster HT18; why slalom windsurfing, almost certainly the fastest type of racing, almost died as a major class; why more people sail Lasers than the much faster International Canoe; and why more people sail and buy Hobie 16s rather than the faster F16.

Please explain, if speed = popularity, why this is so. Please don't tell us about future revolutions. Please explain the current state of affairs.

Please just tell us why the fastest of all skiffs, the fastest of all windsurfer racing classes, and the fastest of all singlehanded monos are now either One Design, or much less popular than they used to be.

Please don't bluster. Please don't insult people. Please just explain to those of us you consider thick (who have certainly spent a LOT more time sailing fast than you have) how these facts, proven from class registers etc, can prove that speed makes the sport more popular. Please don't make aspersions about the honesty of those who disagree with you - if you don't like the facts, find some ones that prove your case.

Please also tell us why it will help the sport to refuse to recognise the indisputable fact that faster boats are LESS popular.

By the way, what's the fastest boat you have sailed? If pure speed is so important, why don't you windsurf on a speed board? Why don't you sail a Tornado?

The average speed of the boats you sail is pretty slow, but you obviously love the sport. So it doesn't have to become faster to stay healthy.

And please also tell us exactly what job you do, if our jobs are relevant. I'll be interested to know if your mates from the US model yacht team were correct.

Just for other readers; I am NOT against fast boats. Moth foilers are brilliant boats; I saw one of the most prominent ant-foil Mothies sailing one with a big grin about a fortnight ago. I sail many of the fast boats and boards I mentioned above, and I love them. However, the fact is that they are LESS popular than the slow boats. How in heaven anyone can see that as a reason to blame slow boats for any decline in the sport is beyond me. Looking at the best stats for dinghy sailing I can find indicates that it is the FAST boats that bear much of the blame. Many of the fast boats have let their own fleets dwindle, yet they blame any problems of the sport on the slow boat sailors.

I rate the man who did the first foiler Moth as one of the half-dozen greatest designers in dinghies. The guy who did the first monofoiler Moth was a hero of mine when I was a kid and I still respect him greatly. The boats they created are great. I would like to see lots of them. All I am saying is that they are not necessarily better than other boats, they are not necessarily the way forward, and mainly that any discussion about the future course of the sport we love so much MUST include some recognition of the facts rather than the ********. The facts are that most people, including intelligent people and some who have sailed some of the fastest boats, generally prefer slower boats to faster ones. This is a fact and it must have some implications on the ******** idea that faster boats are the only way or the best way to help the sport.

By the way, it's been said that we are "only" seven years into a revolution. In fact, seven years is a long time for a revolution.

Seven years after it was launched, the Laser had a fleet of over 52,000 boats.***
Seven years after his first yacht was launched, Bruce Farr (and some others) had caused the world's offshore racing rules to be re-written twice.
Seven years after the first Windsurfer was launched, there were well over 150,000 boards launched per year and in Europe the sport was doubling each year (Windsurfer Magazine, 1981).
Seven years after Hobie Alter launched the 14, the 14 and 16 had sold tens of thousands and the 18 was on its way.
Seven years after the J/24 was launched, there were about 3.500 of them.

So these "revolutionary" off the beach craft - all notably simple and not super-fast - were selling at a rate of to some 4,000 (approx) to 150,000 per year at this point in their "revolutions". Even down here in Australia in 1981, the Windsurfer OD (just one class) had two specialised rotomoulding machines going full time, turning out a board every 20 minutes or so (?). Even the J/24 was selling at about 400-500 per year.

Those numbers of boats on the water are what a "revolution" in sailing creates. If you give people what they actually want in sailing, they will buy it in their thousands. It's food for thought when it comes to looking at what a revolution in sailing actually is. These figures prove that there is NO undue resistance to innovation in sailing, when it gives most people what they want.

I say again, foilers are bloody great boats. Foiling Moths make every other dinghy their size look silly in terms of pace in most conditions. This is NOT attacking the boats or the developers.



** ISAF class report figures.

* Yachting Association of NSW "Sailbook" annual 1984/85 season, page 41 - 180 Moths reported by NSW clubs (down from earlier numbers).

*** Checked by Laser numbers and builders.

 

I agree whole heartedly with CT's comments. I like sailing fast boats, but there are a number of reasons why I currently do not.
1. My lake is to small. Probably half of all sailing in the UK (the most popular dinghy sailing nation?) is done on lakes. On the vast, vast majority of these lakes anything much quicker than a Fireball just gets across the lake too quickly.
2. Family commitments and other time pressures mean I can not, alas, sail every weekend. Nor cabn i spare the whole day on those weekends when I do go sailing. As much as I love this sport, I doubt whether I get much more than 50hrs on the water in any one year. That is simply not enough time to master the basic skills required for most fast boats. I don't want to spend half my time swimming! Certainly a foiling Moth must take a fair amount of time and effort to get to grips with.
3. My crew (my wife) is less experienced than me and does not enjoy being frightened, feeling out of control (as if!) or getting wet and cold.
4. Fast dinghies are often fragile, or require a lot of care and attention when not sailing. This is time I don't have.

I think I am fairly typical of a large section of sailors and that my reasons for chosing a slower boat are pretty common. The foiling Moths look fantastic, but they are not a viable proposition for the majority of folk. A 'peoples foiler' is a nice idea, but somewhat of an oxymoron. As such, the Moth or Bladerider is not representitive of the sport of sailing. The ISAF/IOC need to decide what they want from Olympic sailing. Are the Olympics for the benefit of the competitors or the spectators? If it is for the competitors, then foiling (as of now) is not popular enough to warrant an Olympic place. There are only about 30 people in the whole world who regularly 'mono' foil. Probably less than 100 who ever have. In my opinion, there is no way that such small numbers deserve Olympic recognition. The argument that Olympic selection will increase numbers is not really a valid one. People should take up a sport, or select a specific boat class, on its own merit, not because they have some Olympic dream.

If the Olympics is for the benefit of TV audiences, then sailing needs to get more air time, or face the chop. It would be a shame if sailing were not in the Olympics, not because I enjoy watching it, but because standards, coaching and equipment undoubtedly advance quicker as a result of the professionalism that an Olympic campaign demands. So, will a Moth increase viewing figures? Undoubtedly, a foiling Moth is a greater spectacle than a Star, in most people's eyes. Its not just the speed, but the gravity defying wackiness of the thing. However, sailing does not make great TV, whatever class is sailed. It is hard to tell who is in the lead and what's happening. You never get the whole picture, nor the whole race. Even for the experienced sailor it is hard to follow on the TV. For those with no sailing experience, it is virtually impossible to understand. Sailing on foils does not change that. Sailing will never get more than 5 minutes of edited highlights, no matter what class is sailed. Changes to the race format would have a far greater impact on the viewability of racing, but I, for one, don't want to change the fundamental aspects of the sport for the sake of 5 minutes telly every 4 years. I don't know about other countries, but the BBC always shows sports were Great Britain might be about to win a medal. Hence we all watched ladies hurling at the last Winter Olympics and badminton got a disproportionate amount of air time in 2004. Arguably, therefore, the best way to increase global TV time for Olympic sailing is to select classes where all the competitors stand a good chance of medalling (or at least, competitors from nations with large TV audiences). Even, tight, racing requires a class where there is little difference in speed between best and worst, and a class that sailors from around the world choose to sail. The Laser?

As an aside, I don't believe that being able to watch sailing on the telly makes people take up the sport. Who watches skiing, for exapmle, and thinks " I'm going to take that up as a hobby?". I suspect if you live in the mountains, you already ski if you like it, and if you live in the desert you never will, no matter how appealing it is. Being in the Olympics and on telly may prevent people leaving sailing, but doesn't actually atract them to it.

PS Is a foiling sport boat physically possible? I would have thought that the ratios required for foiling prohibited the use of ballast for stability.

 

Olympic One Design Prowler.

I can understand peoples comments about class popularity vs speed but it does seem that Olympic sailing is about viewers and television as sailing may face the chop as an olympic sport altogether due to dull viewing. Foiling will be more exciting and if formats can change too then all the better again. Olympic sailing is different and should not necesarily represent an everyday common (old) class.

I believe that olympic classes should represent some kind of pinnacle of our sport that newcomers and young sailors might aspire to sail one day. It may be an unrealistic goal for most but no more difficult than winning gold in any class. So it remains a test of the athlete regardless of old or new.

Prior to the 49er around 9 years ago the laser (I think) was probably the newest design in the Olympics and that took many many years (approx 25 years) to be selected as an Olympic class.

I certainly did not grow up admiring 470's, finn's, stars or lasers etc. Imagine if olympic cycling did what yachting has done and locked in one design 1950's technology push bikes and we were today watching cycling olympians using old design steel frames with one design 1950s wheels, tyres, gears. Oh no you can't use that high tech handle bar grip tape it must be genuine leather. Would cycling still be an olympic sport today?

 

I believe that people watch sport for the tension, the drama and to see their team win. The only way to increase viewing figures is to increase the tension, make a better drama or make the popular teams win more (whilst still retaining the odd unexpected loss, so as to increase the drama). Using Moths rather than Finns is a bit like only allowing brunnetes to play tennis. They look good, but the game is still the same...

 

Foils

Pi, as to sportboats check these ratio's out:
Sportboats: Design for Flight - Boat Design Forums
Address:http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=14606
----------
Have you ever seen a video of a foiling Moth? Or of a Finn sailing? The foiling Moth changes the video experience 100%.....

 

Fact is... if there will ever be another boating oriented entry in the Olympics, I'd rather watch kiteboarding than the foiling of anything.

If you are talking real Q values on TV, then kiteboards are much more spectacular than the much more expensive boats will ever be.

Numbers on the water to justify relative importance? Perhaps the foiling proponents would like to supply the world-wide numbers of freestyle kite surfers, slalom specialists and all-out straight line speed practitioners compared to the numbers of foiling Moths...?


As for the infancy argument... water-launchable kites have been around since the late 80's, but real, commercially manufactured and marketed kites for watermen didn't actually begin until 1997. Ten short, infancy years, in Doug's parlance and kiting has swept the planet to a degree that positively dwarfs anything even conceptualized by the foiling Moth proponents.

They're easier to fly, less complicated mechanically, faster on the water and enormously less expensive to acquire. All this points to a sport that is hugely more accessible for entry level enthusiasts and pure recreationists. Professional kiting is another level beyond that market reality....


Ask yourself these simple questions:

1.) Can an I Moth foiler get air for hundreds of yards at a time while doing gymnastic movements?

2.) Can an I Moth foiler run in inches of water along the shoreline?

3.) Can an I Moth foiler ride overhead surf in control?

Pure speed your thing? Namibian, Olaf Marting holds the fastest mark for a kiteboarder over a timed 500 meter course at 41.79 knots.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitesurfing

Give me a ring when any foiling Mothie cracks the 38+ knot barrier. And do make sure to get the whole GPS/timing thing correct this time before dropping the hammer on some home-brewed speed claims.

Yep, hands down... Kiteboarding is a far better pick for the Olympics than is Moth foiling. You think maybe that this Revolution Thing is just a little bit oversold in light of what can be done with a kite in your hands and a planing board on your feet? They even make them for big boys and the rig won't cost you USD$12K

 

Yep, I reckon you're right that a shakeup of the Olympic sailing is needed. But you could also say that the most popular Olympic sports in terms of viewing (I think) are the ones that show people performing at an amazing level on pretty standard gear. Isn't the pinnacle for most athletes doing what many other people can do, but doing it better? Many "equipment" sports do allow a certain level of development, but then again the surveys here show that sailing has a very HIGH rate of converting participants to racers, so maybe sailing is the model other sports should be following.

On the other hand, perhaps sailing is already too far away from the average viewer's experience and therefore has to find another angle. I'm not really sure, but I don't think we can just follow Wheately's line and say "don't give me reasoned argument, just chuck the relics out."

Are you sure the analogy with bike technology holds up? Even the Finn (not my own favourite Olympic boat) has progressed greatly in technology since the '50s, from wooden masts to carbon wings. There's a '56 Finn in the museum; you'd imagine it would be beaten as easily as a '50s bike. But of course the basic design is ancient and expensive and IMHO ripe for replacement by some newer boat.

And aren't bikes themselves are restricted? Streamlined recumbents are lots faster than conventional Olympic bikes, but they aren't allowed in the Games. As I understand it (I may be wrong) cycling also got a lot of criticism when the "superbikes" arrived. Is the foiler sailing's version of the road bike, the superbike, or the banned recumbent? I dunno

The guy who runs the new board class seems to feel that the solution to better TV for Olympic sailing has to be found in things like more colourful sails, camera boats that can go on the course, and more emphasis on making heroes from the sailors, rather than jazzing the sport up with sudden-death races etc.

The problem seems to be that no one has really studied our sport, the public's image of it, and what would be best.


By the way, Doug, from your silence I assume that you have no effective answer to the questions posed earlier.

 

Olympic One Design Prowler.
John, that's great!

Marco.

 

hi chris,

i'll punch one for the kitesurfers as a exciting telegenic wind/water sport as well.

here are some more examples why kitesurfing can be quite exiting for spectators

http://www.kitefilm.com/video/shinn1024.wmv

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLtuooB3slM

a bit off topic, but.....
after the big success of GPS speed surfing.com for windsurfers over the last few years, there is a GPS kite speed site now as well.
and it's just incredible what speeds are posted!!!!
there have been three separate sessions now with GPS recorded peak speeds over 50kn and a 100m speed of 50.7kn!!!!that is just incredible.
but what is really insane about the speeds is where they have been sailed. in VERY shallow water. we're talking 10-15cm of water!!!! one spot is in the south of france in port st. louis and one in northern germany just north of st. peter ording [westerheversand].

 

Yikes!

Whoaaaa! 50+ through a 100 meter time trap?

I guess my only question for these guys is... when are they going to figure out a proper suit to wear to eliminate a good deal of the human aero drag? The picture below shows World Speed Skiing Champion, Italy's Simone Origone in full, futuro man guise as he steams downhill on skis at 251.4 km/h

One can only guess how high the number might go for a kiteboarder who does this.

I don't know the answer to this, but supposing a plus fifty kt. run, once certified over 500 meters... doesn't that make them the fastest, wind driven boat on the water?

 

Moth on Foils

Kites and Windsurfers are fantastic performers and extraordinary fun-I have first hand Windsurfer(and catamaran windsurfer-Kona Kat) experience -I haven't sailed a kiteboard - but I will be sailing a kite boat down the line.
Neither has the potential to affect sailing in the profound way the bi-foil technology pioneered by the Moth will from kite boats with foils to boats bigger than Wild Oats with foils; bi-foil multihulls like Horiuchis's flying tri are possible as well.
But the really profound application of the bi-foil system will be to monohulls of all sizes-
monofoiler's will change the sportboat scene and probably ocean racing down the line.
Two and three person dinghy monofoilers have already been built and flown and the race is on for a Peoples Foiler-just a matter of time.
And that's just scratching the surface-there is room for a lot of experimentation in the use of the bi-foil system in foil assist applications in the same wide range of boat types.
So you bet it's a revolution --started in the Moth class- but with huge potential throughout the sailing world.

 

Olympic Prowler

I'm with Marco! Make it happen John-fantastic!

 

Tom Ehman, wrong?? Foilers "Big Yawn-just more of the same"?

Check this out:
From: editor@sailingscuttlebutt.com(Curmudgeon) Date: Mon, Dec 18, 2006, 5:58pm (EST-3) To: lorsail@webtv.net Subject: Scuttlebutt 2246
SCUTTLEBUTT 2246 – December 19, 2006 (www.sailingscuttlebutt.com)
Scuttlebutt is a digest of major sailing news, commentary, opinions, features and dock talk . . . with a North American focus. Scuttlebutt is distributed each weekday, with support provided by UBS, main partner of Alinghi, Defender of the 32nd America's Cup (http://www.ubs.com/sailing).
GUEST COMMENTARY
(Tom Ehman has forgotten more about the sport than most of us will ever know. He's a past Executive Director of US Sailing, former head of the U.S. delegation to ISAF, and has been involved in the America's Cup for over two decades. Most recently, he's been assisting Sail.tv with their broadcasts of the World Match Racing Tour. Here he provides insight from his side of the fence.)
The general public, and hence TV audiences, could hardly care less about what classes are raced in the Olympics. The fast and furious 49er is no more interesting to the uninitiated than the tactical, slow Star boat. At least the Star has a large sail area and tends to fill up the TV screen rather than looking like a toy boat. (TV people will tell you that the FD, with its long, low hull and large overlapping jib, was the best-looking Olympic class ever on the tube, and it long ago got the flick.)
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Foilers, a la the Moth? Sorry to say it, more of the same -- big yawn.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
What does the general public really want? Big names representing their countries in match racing. Match racing is easy to understand and is something that they just may have heard about before (due to the America's Cup and World Match Racing Tour). Reps of their countries? Of course, it's good old Olympic nationalism. Big names? Goes without saying. If ISAF were smart (and of course they proved otherwise when they unceremoniously dumped match racing to preserve yet another fleet-racing dinghy discipline), they would re-install match racing and find a way to qualify the following or similar big names to the Olympic Games:
AUS - Peter Gilmour
DEN -Jesper Bank
FRA - Sebastian Col
GBR - Ian Percy
GER - Jochen Schumann
ITA - Paolo Cian
NZL - Chris Dickson
MSA - Tiffany Koo
POL - Karol Jablonski
RSA - Ian Ainslie
SWE - Magnus Holmberg
USA - Paul Cayard
Now there's an Olympic yachting event people would tune in for, sailors and non-sailors alike. -- Tom Ehman

 

And a rebuttal from Jay Cross.

"With all due respect to Tom (Ehman), it
seems to me he is missing the point (in his commentary in Issue 2246). The
general public ("and hence TV audiences) are right not to care about what
classes or events are in the Olympics and for that matter do they care about
any Olympic sport? I say no and we should just move on. The general public
likes sports which with broad TV coverage which is predominantly spectator
sport and even that is local - not too many people in Australia (except
Olympic sailor Jamie Wilmot who is a Jets fan) watch the NFL and not too
many people here watch Aussie Rules football. In both cases though, the
football ratings far exceed any Olympic sport. Skiing, track, swimming, even
tennis (the Tennis Channel is struggling to get cable carriage) all have
very limited television audiences. Our sport is, as the marketers say, "part
of the long tail" which fortunately as a result of the internet now allows
us all to connect. Hence the popularity (only relatively speaking) of the
Volvo and those events which purposely produce themselves for the web.

We should put the classes and events in the Olympics that 'sailors want' and
produce our own broadcasts 'for sailors' over the web - which is to say
kudos to Sail.tv, it's the future and damn the general public."


Jay Cross was one of the top International 14 designers, so he knows development.

A One Design version of one of his 14s was used for the Ultimate Yacht Race pro series (one of the many failed attempts at pro racing) so we can assume that he knows about the inner workngs of pro sailing.

He is a head honcho at a reasonably big firm, so he knows about management.

That reasonably big firm is the New York Jets, so he obviously knows about pro sport and televised sport.