Boat Design Forums  |  Boat Design Directory  |  Boat Design Gallery  |  Boat Design Book Store  |  Thanks to Our Site Sponsors
  #31  
Old 06-12-2006, 02:54 AM
DSmith DSmith is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Rep: 12 Posts: 53
Location: Sydney
Transient errors

Quote:
Originally Posted by frosh
these Moth records are transient bursts
...or more likely ....transient errors!
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 06-12-2006, 04:13 AM
RHough's Avatar
RHough RHough is offline
Retro Dude
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Rep: 793 Posts: 1,792
Location: BC Summers / Nayarit Winters
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Lord
BTW - the 10 second average on this run was 23.3 knots in about 20-22 knots.
-r
LMAO!

Wow! TEN whole SECONDS at 23.3! Incredible! Why didn't this make the front page of the papers?

Could it be that a 29+ knot average for 24 HOURS makes 23+ for 10 seconds sound silly?

Hell even a lead mine has averaged 23.4 knots for 24 HOURS.

1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 - 8 - 9 - 10 .... Wow, these things must be the future of sailing!

NOT
__________________
Proud supporter of The Far Kurnell Cat Racing Team

I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work.
- Thomas A. Edison
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 06-12-2006, 04:51 AM
Doug Lord
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Moth class

As understand it, there is a contest going on in the Moth class among guys all using the same extremely accurate 12 channel Velocitek GPS; the last Moth class max record was set by Sam Pascoe in the UK a few weeks ago.
Frosh, these are standard 11' Moth's with 85 sq.ft. SA-and accessible to the rather large segment of the population between 145 and 180 pounds and willing to spend the time to learn to sail a Moth. The new Olympic hopeful Bladerider is a legal Moth in one configuration but offers another bigger rig -these aren't even sailing yet. Max speed has increased tremendously in this class in just the last year ;the surface has barely been scratched in terms of potential speed....
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 06-12-2006, 05:00 AM
John ilett's Avatar
John ilett John ilett is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Rep: 23 Posts: 131
Location: Perth Australia
Unless you are trying for a real speed record I think that every class of keel or dinghy always quotes their best speed so this is quite normal.

Frosh, why so pessimistic?
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 06-12-2006, 05:14 AM
RHough's Avatar
RHough RHough is offline
Retro Dude
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Rep: 793 Posts: 1,792
Location: BC Summers / Nayarit Winters
Quote:
Originally Posted by John ilett
Unless you are trying for a real speed record I think that every class of keel or dinghy always quotes their best speed so this is quite normal.

Frosh, why so pessimistic?
Exactly! ... these are not "real speed records"

There is a big difference between the Moth guys having fun and seeing who can set the best spot times and those times being touted as the new be-all, end-all, greatest thing since sliced bread and indoor plumbing.

I have a 10 second GPS reading of 12.4 knots in my Catalina 30 ... are you impressed?

... didn't think so ...
__________________
Proud supporter of The Far Kurnell Cat Racing Team

I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work.
- Thomas A. Edison
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 06-12-2006, 06:19 PM
Doug Lord
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Moth Foiler

The development of the foiler Moth is one of the most significant developments in sailing in the last 100 years; it is an extraordinary little boat that has a long and growing record of whipping most other sailboats under 20' including most multihulls. The speed increases posted by the Moth guys over the last few years in their class "contest" are simply fantastic especially the ones over the last few months that are all being recorded by the same extremely accurate GPS speedometer. Exciting stuff and extremely significant in what it portends for small and large boat sailing now and in the future.
This is a revolution in sailing that started with the Moth but will have a profound effect across a wide spectrum of sailboat design the limits of which are not even close to being fully understood. Major large boat sailing programs are looking at designs that utilize the bi-foil hydrofoil system pioneered by the Moth; it's looking possible that large ballasted keelboats may be able to adopt this technology and other new technologies such as on-deck movable ballast and produce incredible boats with the selfrighting charateristics of leadbellies and the speed of multihullls.
So "laugh your *** off" if you want but what is happening here is the begining of one of the greatest changes ever to happen in sailing and sailing design.
And I congratulate the pioneers like Rohan and John Ilett, Sam Pascoe, Adam May, and many others that have started the ball rolling despite the early prognostications by the "anti-foilers" in the Moth class and elsewhere.
This is so much fun to watch unfold with the pace of development measurable in just weeks from one benchmark to the next-cool stuff ,guys! Keep up the great work-and I WILL post the results here....
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 06-12-2006, 09:07 PM
RHough's Avatar
RHough RHough is offline
Retro Dude
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Rep: 793 Posts: 1,792
Location: BC Summers / Nayarit Winters
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Lord
The development of the foiler Moth is one of the most significant developments in sailing in the last 100 years;
Right up there with SS rigging, Aluminum Spars, Glassfibre Hulls and Dacron sailcloth ..? Do you really believe that marinas in 25 years will be full of foiling sailboats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Lord
Major large boat sailing programs are looking at designs that utilize the bi-foil hydrofoil system pioneered by the Moth; it's looking possible that large ballasted keelboats may be able to adopt this technology and other new technologies such as on-deck movable ballast and produce incredible boats with the selfrighting charateristics of leadbellies and the speed of multihullls.
These fantastic new machines will obsolete boats like the VO70's right?

Here's what Paul Cayard has to say about VO70's:

Should he choose to sail again, Cayard admits he is uncertain whether he favours the Volvo Open 70.

I do and do not. They are fantastically fun to sail, but they are also right on the edge in terms of seaworthiness.

If Paul Cayard thinks that the VO70's are barely seaworthy, what do you think the reaction will be to a full on foiling, moving deck ballast, contraption?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Lord
So "laugh your *** off" if you want but what is happening here is the begining of one of the greatest changes ever to happen in sailing and sailing design.
Just like hydrofoils have revolutionized power vessels? It is certainly easier to design powered foilers than sailing foilers, but we don't see foilers dominate in any area of power boating that I am aware of.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Lord
And I congratulate the pioneers like Rohan and John Ilett, Sam Pascoe, Adam May, and many others that have started the ball rolling despite the early prognostications by the "anti-foilers" in the Moth class and elsewhere.
This is so much fun to watch unfold with the pace of development measurable in just weeks from one benchmark to the next-cool stuff ,guys! Keep up the great work-and I WILL post the results here....
I hope you do, sidebars always make interesting reading. Foiler Moths and HHO power are definitely interesting sidebar material.

People that push the envelope certainly earn my respect. As far as the speeds go, John himself stated "Unless you are trying for a real speed record ..." at least someone that actually sails one has a clear vision of the importance of these spot GPS readings.

Rather than talk about the slightly more credible 10 seconds speeds, you choose to tout the peak speeds, giving a casual reader the false impression that the boats are 20% faster than they really are. Thus a fair assumption would be that everything else you state as fact is also inflated 20% or more.

So yes, I'm laughing my *** off ... it's a great show!
__________________
Proud supporter of The Far Kurnell Cat Racing Team

I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work.
- Thomas A. Edison
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 06-13-2006, 01:21 AM
frosh's Avatar
frosh frosh is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Rep: 44 Posts: 621
Location: AUSTRALIA
Lets get foilers in proportion (to reality)!

Hi John, firstly I am not pessimistic, just trying to bring Doug back from an almost manic emotional state he attains, whenever he hears any news at all about a foiling sail boat, especially a Moth which he seems to be obsessed with. Don't misunderstand my sentiments, I have built and sailed three Moths and really like them, but HE goes too far!! Even on Doug's thread re his own personal sit in keelboat concept, he is describing a 14.75 ft scaled up Moth with various gizmos to try to avoid the need to skilfully balance the hull and also avoid hiking out.
Does everbody who is a sailor realise how small this sport is in the scheme of world wide sporting endeavors. For a start Olympic live telecasts never show sailing events any more yet other boat sports (rowing or paddling) get considerable air time. I havn't checked in detail but I suspect that the media knows that out of all sports in the winter and summer Olympics the general public would have the least interest in watching yacht racing.
Going beyond the Olympics, there are events that capture 100 times more interest than even the swimming events in the Games such as motor racing or Football (the world game).
Some-one said on another thread that there are perhaps 50 really capable foiler sailors in the world. Probably there another 200 wannabees as well.
Nothing wrong in reporting a "record" being broken, although I don't agree it is either a record or of any significant importance.

The other disturbing trend that has been apparent for perhaps 20 years or more is that apart from junior sailors, the number of dinghy or small boat sailors has sharply decreased in senior ranks and continues unabated.
Many yacht clubs that in the 60's and 70''s were strong dinghy clubs would have already closed their doors if it were not for a slowly increasing presence of small keelboats.

Even in a highly select forum such as this one, there are only a few that would agree that the evolution as highlighted by the Moth is one of the most significant development in sailing in 100 years. To then extrapolate this to claiming that we will soon see large ocean racing keelboats using the bifoil technology is patently ridiculous as this ignores almost all the laws of physics as well as the non-negiotable requirements that such ocean racers are properly designed to be seaworthy in offshore conditions. Safety must be given a much priority than bursts of straight line speed or the sport will be legislated out of existence.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 06-15-2006, 08:35 PM
Doug Lord
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Picture worth a thousand words....

Too far?
PICT0080.jpg
Address:http://www.rohanveal.com/photos/2006...l/PICT0080.jpg Changed:2:21 AM on Monday, June 12, 2006
=================
Rohan Veal on speedsailing and catamaran passing:
Rohan Veal - Home Page
Address:http://www.rohanveal.com/home.html Changed:2:58 AM on Monday, June 12, 2006

Last edited by Doug Lord : 06-15-2006 at 09:05 PM. Reason: to add info
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 06-16-2006, 12:46 AM
frosh's Avatar
frosh frosh is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Rep: 44 Posts: 621
Location: AUSTRALIA
So? !!

What is the significance of the photos to anyone except Rohan and you?
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 06-16-2006, 09:13 AM
Chris Ostlind Chris Ostlind is offline
Previous Member
 
Delicate structures

Yeah, OK, it's decently cool that the boat can go fast in the most perfect of conditions. What isn't decently cool is the apparent tendency of these machines to suffer breakdowns. This tendency is expressed by Rohan in the followng quotes from Lord's posted links

"On the Sunday we had a bit more wind of around 12-20 knots. Aaron and Zac both had breakages on their main foils during the day, but Zac's was repaired for the afternoon session, only to have the repair fail during the second race of the day."

and

"I noticed some rumbling noises coming from the foils once I hit 25 knots, but at this stage I stopped looking at the GPS and started to concentrate on not destroying myself or the boat. I probably only went over 25 knots for no more than 2 seconds, before I brought the boat back down to the water to kill off some speed. Not a good idea to go stupid four weeks before sending the boat overseas for the worlds." (italicized emphasis mine)

I think that there's a strong desire on the part of some proponents to want to live in the realm of high speed numbers. Unfortunately, this tendency to the glory side of things comes at the expense of reading all the data and contemplating the realities associated with a speedy, fragile craft.

Make any parallel arguments you wish, but for my money, I'd like to be out on the water instead of doing all those tedious (and ultimately expensive) repair hours back in the shop.

I've had my share of blazing fast, highly tuned, road racing motorcycles over the years and they need lots of attention and fiddling to keep them on the edge of full performance.

The era of really fast, technologically advanced motorcycles has been with us since the early seventies. Perhaps Mr. Lord has an answer as to why that style of bike has not become the defacto People's Rocket of the two wheeled motoring world? In fact, during that time, the heavy, slow and old-tech V-twin engined Harley Davidson has enjoyed a resurgence of popularity in spite of the availability of the unbelievably quick, People's Rockets.

The truth of the matter is in the pricing of these two types of vehicles in the used market. Used Harley's go for very high resale values, while a well maintained "Rocket" will struggle to be unloaded by its owner. A clear problem of yesterday's technology being distinctly out of vogue.

Hmmm... perhaps all-out speed isn't the most important quotient when it comes to outdoor sporting activities and the equipment used???
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 06-16-2006, 09:33 AM
John ilett's Avatar
John ilett John ilett is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Rep: 23 Posts: 131
Location: Perth Australia
For Chris, bit harsh to judge reliabilty of the whole moth class on Zacs boat. This is an 11 year old boat with home built foils. There are very few boats foiling that are not pro built.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 06-16-2006, 10:12 AM
Chris Ostlind Chris Ostlind is offline
Previous Member
 
Harsh

Then why does Rohan also state that he didn't want to destroy his boat. A quote like this can only mean that he has concerns about structural reliability at these speeds.

If it's otherwise, I'd like to hear it.

Secondly, if the boat belonging to Zac had hit some great number on the readout, would there be a disclaimer that it was done on homebuilt foils and not pro-built units? What does that say about the need for pro-built foils?

One begins to see that the claims are nice and all that, but it's entirely premature to regard the overall enterprise as something important in the sailing world. When coupled with the arguments as presented by Frosh, there's a lot to be addressed before sailors can regard this as the next, perfect cheeseburger for watersports.
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 06-16-2006, 10:33 AM
John ilett's Avatar
John ilett John ilett is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Rep: 23 Posts: 131
Location: Perth Australia
Rohan was only concerned to risk the boat in any way considering that the worlds are close and the boat must be shipped soon.

Just because you do not view them as the perfect cheeseburger is no reason to try and discredit their reliability. Like all the knockers so far, they usually come around to understand the boats better. But as you have no experience with them you can only pick and choose the best bits from the web to support your views.

"The perfect cheeseburger" good name for a new boat.
Reply With Quote


  #45  
Old 06-16-2006, 11:14 AM
Chris Ostlind Chris Ostlind is offline
Previous Member
 
"Rohan was only concerned to risk the boat in any way"

And that implies what, exactly?

The argument is not simply that things can break and it's convenient to cherry pick the point to support the discussion. There's a bigger issue and it isn't being addressed by any of the proponents, including yourself, John. I hinted at that issue in the rest of the original posting by pointing out that complex, go-fast sporting products have limited shelf life, lousy resale value and don't typically appeal to the mass buyers that make for a truly successful product line.

It's true, I have not sailed a foiling Moth as none have been available in the regions where I have sailed regularly. I have sailed both the Trifoiler and the Rave in conditions that favored both boats and their potentials. My take on the foiling phenomenon has been stipulated on several occasions to that end.

To state my position again: Under the right applications, foilers can be fun craft. They have extraordinary potential for high speeds under sail. They operate best in a more slender window of conditions than do non-foiling boats. There are many more parts necessary and they are more susceptible to damage, adjustment issues and maintenance requirements than do regular, non-foiling, boats. They're not for everyday sailors who get out once a month and want an enjoyable, recreational experience.

All people pick and choose the bits to which they will address their attention, John, this isn't a specific phenomenon to me. You do it as well. The parallel was made between old-tech motorcycles and the typical Rice Rocket bike because it matches this argument well. Huge performance claims, the projected future of the sport puff, the latest technology being brought to bear for advancements in the sport, etc. Yet, you chose to side-step the issue and select-out the argument that you wished to address.

Hey, that's OK with me as I understand you have a financial and personal time investment in the foiling cause, but it doesn't make the point go away.

When one of you guys actually addresses the limitations and problems that need to be overcome along with all the hyperbole, we'll actually have a grounded, meaningful discussion. Until then, it's your side vs the other side and it'll look like stuff is being tossed back and forth with no understanding on the issues.

What do you say that you (a collective term, here, since you've not publically suggested that Mr. Lord could perhaps dial it back a few notches) drop the incessant line about the speed thing and openly talk about the obvious issues regarding these boats, the fun quotient, the costs, the maintenance, etc? Until you do that, these boats will remain a one trick pony to average sailors and they'll go nowhere in the marketplace as popular boats.

Since you have a business interest in this subject, you can establish a refreshingly new approach to the marketing of boats in which the pros and cons of the product are openly discussed and the consumer gets to make an educated decision based on your thoughtful care for their well-being as valued customers.
Reply With Quote
Reply



Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
need to gain 2-3 mph TheStinger Props 0 06-19-2013
07:39 PM 
Symmetrical foils versus asymmetrical foils idkfa Boat Design 1 04-27-2010
10:04 PM 
Kiteboard, no foils, 50.1 knots (57.6 mph) Chris Ostlind Sailboats 11 09-23-2008
12:32 PM 
Hull strenght, how much more for 40 mph, 50 mph, 60 mph, 70 mph? seabuddy Boat Design 5 10-10-2004
10:19 AM 
Moth on Foils Wins Aussie Nationals! Doug Lord Sailboats 12 02-20-2004
11:16 PM 

Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:38 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Web Site Design and Content Copyright ©1999 - 2017 Boat Design Net