Moth on Foils: 31.1 knots (35.8 mph)

[Doug Lord]

Interestingly, Bora Gulari-6th in the recent Moth World Championship-defeated 31 other Melges 24 skippers to take that class in Charleston Race Week......

[bgulari]

Why is that interesting?

[Paul B]

Originally Posted by bgulari

Why is that interesting?

Myopia?

Maybe he finds it interesting because he has no idea you have a history in the M24 class.

I guess he thinks you must be some newcomer who only found competitive sailing through the greatness of foiling.

[Doug Lord]

Mach 2-100 boats in 14 months......
http://www.mach2boats.com/

pix from Mach II site:

[Doug Lord]

or Aw, come on ,give me a break!
Simon Payne from Sail-World:
"As the discussion developed, Simon went on to add, 'I really don't believe there's an excuse to say that the conditions at any particular event were this or that. The Moth is such a tuneable boat and frankly, with the events that we've been to, it's really obvious what wind you're going to get there. Dubai was never going to be windy and the Gorge was never going to be light! So you do what you can in order to optimise yourself and your performance for those conditions.'

'Clearly, sometimes if you weigh 90 kilos or alternatively 50 kilos, it's going to be an advantage, but the job of any sailor, is to take that offset out of the equation and prepare accordingly. One example is Andrew McDougall, who at 78 kilos or whatever he is (and 54 years of age, just quietly), was the first to foil in Dubai and was sensationally quick in the light stuff.'

'Why? Because he doesn't regard his weight as an excuse and just gets on with it. He understands the factors he's got to play with and makes the most of it.'

For the record, Simon is a welterweight, 69 kilograms and said, 'I still look at this trophy and then look at the people I'm sailing with and think, ‘What am I doing in this company?' It amazes me sometimes. I'm just a lucky guy.'

Sticking with the weight question for a while, we looked at how a Laser sailor may have taken 12 kilos off for Qingdao, but then be back up at the previous weight for Weymouth. Asked if he saw this as necessary or appropriate, Simon responded with, 'Absolutely. I think there needs to be an element of that.'

'I do think that it was a little surprising that the US guys up in the mid 80 kilo range did not attempt to lose weight for the Dubai Worlds. There may be three reasons for that. One they couldn't, two they didn't think they needed to, or three, they generally expected the conditions to be different.'

'We're not pushing water, so as soon as we're on the hydrofoils, we're overpowered upwind, anyway. At that time you've got nearly 20 knots of breeze over your sails and the boat's doing between 10 and 14 knots upwind, as soon as you lift off.'

'There's no issue for a big guy, once he's on the foils. We're not governed so much like the Olympic classes. I stuck a really soft mast on the boat for training in the breeze that we had the week beforehand and I was every bit as quick as Bora Gulari' (the immediate past World Champ)."

http://www.sail-world.com/USA/Foilin...Part-One/68645

[Doug Lord]

Rob Gough has apparently set a new class record .
"TASMANIAN sailor Rob Gough has become the fastest man in the world in his class, after smashing a speed record in Hobart.

He clocked up an astonishing 30.7 knots, that's about 57 km/h, during a training session in his International Moth on the Derwent River last weekend. "

http://www.themercury.com.au/article...5_sailing.html

UPDATE: story picked up by International Moth site: http://www.moth-sailing.org/imca/faces/news.jsp

pix: Gough from The Mercury:

[Chris Ostlind]

Peak Speed "records" are the sailboat equivalent to push-up bras and hoochy-mama breast implants. They look good, but when you strip it all away, it's really all about nothing of substance.

Bring those claims to Walvis Bay, or Luderitz and make a run over a proper, WSSRC sanctioned, 500 meter course and then make the boast. Everything else is fluff.

[Doug Lord]

I want to thank Jeff for updating the on-going Moth class speed saga---Its a great record in this thread-the best anywhere-of the steadily increasing performance of the worlds fastest sailboat under 20'(other than windsurfers or kites).

[Doug Lord]

While there is loads of evidence of a flying Moth being faster than every cat under 20' and some evidence that it is faster than a Tornado now there is this story from the British Invictus(C Class Cat ) guys:

Yesterday we were joined on the water by Adam May on his Mach 2 Moth. Whilst we could power up well before he got on foils, once he was up he was a good bench mark. Down-wind in a little more breeze he sailed through us comfortably whilst I tried a slightly hotter style with more weight outboard (It didn't pay and we resorted to the deeper sitting to leeward style). Upwind we were obviously faster and reaching we could reel him in... but like I said, these were winds at the low end of his foiling spectrum. I'm sure we will have plenty of opportunities to match up again in the future. Adam's top speed for the day was 15.6 whilst ours was 16.5... for what it's worth (I think we shared the same wind in general but niether of us just focused on peak speed).

Pretty damn remarkable for the little 11' monohull!!!

[Chris Ostlind]

Surely, you know by now that there are many smaller, quicker machines around a given racing course when compared to bigger versions.

In the auto/motorcycle racing world. it is very common for an FIM Superbike to be faster around a course than a punked Corvette. They are quicker with throttle response, handle more quickly in corners and have a better power to weight ratio.

You keep posting these things as if they actually mean something, when, in fact, they mean very little in the grand scheme of things.

Want to measure-up a foiling Moth in something that actually has serious sailing attached... go race a Mini 6.50 across the Atlantic against a foiling Moth and let's see which one gets to the finish line first. Or, just so this doesn't turn into a full-on stupid party, make the race across the Bay of Biscay and keep it close to the shore.

Doug, this stuff is meaningless. Why not quit with the so-called, stupendous accomplishments, when they add-up to zero in the vast realm of sailboats. Barring that letting go process, get one of the fastest Moths with an excellent driver and have them run it through at the Weymouth Speedweek. Everything else in the post above is pure, redundant BS.

[u4ea32]

Chris, I do find it interesting to hear that foiling moth performance is continuing to improve. It reminds me of the early days of Windsurfing when things seemed to be progressing at a tremendous rate.

I owned Windsurfer number 2. I was the first person sailing a Windsurfer in Hawaii. At first, we were just barely faster than sabots, then faster than Lido 14s, then we could control them in puffs and plane for a few seconds at a time before being launched, ... and after a few years, I could stay up with the fastest cats downwind ... after a few years, harnesses and foot straps allowed us totally new performance regimes ... and after a few more years, someone set the all out sailing record on a windsurfer.

There are a ton of other boats that are interesting too, Chris. And all these various boats have their sweet spot.

But for sure, blasting around under sail is a ton of fun! That's not BS.

[Chris Ostlind]

Originally Posted by u4ea32

Chris, I do find it interesting to hear that foiling moth performance is continuing to improve. It reminds me of the early days of Windsurfing when things seemed to be progressing at a tremendous rate.

David, I don't see foiling Moth performance progressing at a tremendous rate. That may have been true several years ago, but it's not true now. From my perspective, it appears that they have hit their zenith.

Originally Posted by u4ea32

I owned Windsurfer number 2. I was the first person sailing a Windsurfer in Hawaii. At first, we were just barely faster than sabots, then faster than Lido 14s, then we could control them in puffs and plane for a few seconds at a time before being launched, ... and after a few years, I could stay up with the fastest cats downwind ... after a few years, harnesses and foot straps allowed us totally new performance regimes ... and after a few more years, someone set the all out sailing record on a windsurfer.

The same thing is true for just about every fresh technology that arrives on the scene. New boats get out among the masses, someone immediately looks at how to make them faster and soon enough, new hulls, rigs, foils, etc., appear that take them to new places.

Originally Posted by u4ea32

There are a ton of other boats that are interesting too, Chris. And all these various boats have their sweet spot.

True

Originally Posted by u4ea32

But for sure, blasting around under sail is a ton of fun! That's not BS.

No argument, there, David. I enjoy it myself. The BS is the repetitive slathering of the same old stuff as if none of us ever saw the same exact post ten times already. To tell us that an 11' monohull that goes fast when on foils is unique is redundant in the extreme. How about a fresh argument that has an expansive meaning, rather than positing the same crapola over and over?...

[u4ea32]

A use of foils I'd like to see: reduction of effective displacement, not the elimination by totally flying.

Another: stabilizers that are more efficient, and cause less yaw disturbance, than existing stabilizer fins.

Neither of the above are breakthroughs, there are many existing examples of both. However, they are on the fringe, not in the mainstream, kinda like foiling moths.

Maybe some of the development in moths can feed improvements here.

[Doug Lord]

For years, since I first tried it on my 16' bi-foiler, I've suggested that it might behoove anybody racing a Moth to , at least, consider the use of manual altitude control of the main foil flap-particularly in rough conditions.
Anybody interested in this idea can now contact somebody that is actually using it to fly a two foil monohull while racing:
Mirabaud LX 2010

I believe the system could easily be adapted to a Moth. It would ,however, require a committment to learning how to use it on a singlehander but in a class where every little bit helps eliminating the drag of the wand may be a step worth taking. Its not just the drag of the wand -it is the better control that a manual system can offer.

[Chris Ostlind]

It's fascinating that you would suggest that foilers need to reduce the drag of the wand and point to Mirabaud as the example.

First of all, all of the best Moth foilers in the recent Worlds used wands. This is one of the most nitpicky classes there is about reducing drag signatures for advantage. Curious, no? The guys who have the most on the line in the very discipline mentioned, do not bother to eliminate the wand and it's supposedly detrimental drag signature.

The guys who race the fastest Moths have repeatedly told you that it's a good thing to have the flap being controlled automatically, as it frees them to look around, watch for shifts, keep an eye on the other racers, sea state, etc. Mirabaud does not have to be concerned about that set of uber-critical functions, as it does not have any races in which it can enter as a class. Sticking a manually controlled flap adjuster on a twitchy, fast boat is asking for problems that probably far exceed the potential, once in awhile, gains.

How much drag does the wand on Mirabaud create, Doug and what effect does that drag have on the overall performance of the boat?