Moth on Foils: 31.1 knots (35.8 mph)

[Cheesy]

What sort of event would you use for kites though? I think that a sailing type course would actually be pretty boring to watch.

And Doug Lord really how different is a kite to a spinaker? is a boat with a kite no longer a sailing!? I would also beg to differ that it is 'flown' off a string, they are actually contolled with 4 or 5 lines, do some reasearch before you start talking crap.

Or are you just pissed that someone with a Crossbow III (maybe $2000) is faster than a million dollar program?

Originally Posted by Cheesy

What sort of event would you use for kites though? I think that a sailing type course would actually be pretty boring to watch.

And Doug Lord really how different is a kite to a spinaker? is a boat with a kite no longer a sailing!? I would also beg to differ that it is 'flown' off a string, they are actually contolled with 4 or 5 lines, do some reasearch before you start talking crap.

Or are you just pissed that someone with a Crossbow III (maybe $2000) is faster than a million dollar program?

==========================
The fact is that a kite is not a sail and a kiteboard is not a boat. To have the outright speed SAILING record cover a craft that does not sail and can't float
is ludicrous. The kiteguys have done incredible speeds-they are nothing short of phenominal.
But to put them in the same category in terms of the outright speed SAILING record as a 59' LOA 80' wide 11,000lb sailboat carrying 8 people is just plain silly.
--------
From Merriam Websters dictionary:
sailing-the sport of handling or riding in a sailboat
---
In other words you have to throw common sense(and the definition of sailing) out the window to claim a kiteboard (not a boat) is sailing!

[Chris Ostlind]

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

The fact is that a kite is not a sail and a kiteboard is not a boat.

Perhaps you could tell us, then, just what characteristics of the kite would keep it from being regarded as a sail?

Me, personally... I see a foil shaped form that catches and makes power from the wind. I see control lines to further shape and direct the form for the optimal incidence to the wind.

Cheesy's question above regarding the similarities of a kite and a spinnaker have great merit and certainly deserves a reasoned response from you.

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

To have the outright speed SAILING record cover a craft that does not sail and can't float is ludicrous. The kiteguys have done incredible speeds-they are nothing short of phenomenal. But to put them in the same category in terms of the outright speed SAILING record as a 59' LOA 80' wide 11,000lb sailboat carrying 8 people is just plain silly.

For me personally... I see a hull form that has to obey the same laws of hydrodynamics as are applied to a boat, such as L'Hydroptere. The kiteboard must be able to dynamically support the rider, has to be able to provide lateral resistance to the forces of the sail (see above), must be steerable for control and safety and (hopefully) must be able to fufill its design goals from the initial brief.

If you see this differently, then tell us how that has come to pass for you. If it is about standing stability and flotation, then please describe the function of the "boat" known as Mirabaud. When I look at her, I see a boat with very interesting technical capabilities and a certain willingness on the part of the designer to move away from what is typically referred to as "a boat".

Mirabaud has no capability of standing upright by itself on its flotation device, which is typically called, a hull. Instead, it tips over to a completely non-sailable state on its side, resisting total turtle capsize by the presence of inflated pods out under the wing racks. The "boat" can not be righted without outside assistance. Once righted, it is then possible to sail it once the "boat" starts to move and the foils generate enough dynamic lift to stabilize the craft.

Yet, you wish to call that form a sailboat.

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

From Merriam Websters dictionary:
sailing-the sport of handling or riding in a sailboat

So, if this is the boiler plate from which you want to make your determination, then you will also have to toss Mirabaud right out the window of boatdom and into the weirdo, experimental pile... but not a boat, as you do not ride "in" it, but instead, "on" it.

Now, if you then wish to bypass the "in" requirement and take the phrase, "of handling" as the qualifier, then kiteboards easily meet that point with no problem. I can't imagine one person being able to state that a kite board is not "handled".

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

In other words you have to throw common sense(and the definition of sailing) out the window to claim a kiteboard (not a boat) is sailing!

It's very interesting to me that the WSSRC recognizes kiteboards as sailing boats, yet, you do not wish to find their opinions with merit. Mind you, this is the same organization upon which you would depend in order to recognize any possible record setting achievements of Hydrop. Further, the same body would be the one to recognize any legitimate and ratified claims for speed achieved by a foling Moth. The WSSRC has chosen to classify kiteboards as sailing boats, only defining the type within a different class of the record keeping process.

Here is the URL link to the specific page in the WSSRC rules that governs records and attempts for 500 meter speed sailing events:
http://www.sailspeedrecords.com/the-...kilometre.html

You can clearly see that the council has seen fit to describe the kiteboard as well within the rules, only defining them within a separate division, just like sailboats that use different sail areas to achieve their fantastic speeds.

With the outright world record speed having been achieved by two different kiteboarders on four separate runs, it is not a fluke that they have clearly broken through the mythical 50 knot barrier, well before it was done by L'Hydroptere. In fact, Hydrop still hasn't done the full 500 meters at an average speed of 50 knots.

The race to 50 is over, Doug and there isn't one single thing you can do about it save sputter.


Chris Ostlind
Lunada Design
www.lunadadesign.com

No, its not: no sailboat has yet set the 500m record over 50. Hydroptere is the first sailboat in history to have had a momentary top speed over 52 knots. Those are the facts unless you throw out the definition of sailing along with the definition of boat.
========
Your attempt to put Mirabaud in the same category as a kiteboard is ridiculous: Mirabaud can support its entire three person crew in ZERO wind-a kiteboard cannot support its crew without moving.

[Chris Ostlind]

The pictures prove nothing, Doug. But, you knew that.


Write to the WSSRC about your pain. I'm sure that they will accomodate you by totally rewriting their rules. Without that ratification body, Doug, Hydrop's possible achievements will mean nothing.

Right now, it's all about the kiteboarders and their sailing speed records as the first to break through the 50 knot barrier. Everything else is like spitting into the wind.

Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. -- Aldous Huxley

Chris Ostlind
Lunada Design
www.lunadadesign.com

From McConaghy press release(click on image):
edit: more info- http://www.sail-world.com/pda.cfm?Ni...estTimeOut=180

prices: $17,475 ex tax, duty, delivery./9,426 pounds /11,898 euros

[K4s]

Seems a silly arguement to me,50 knots is 50 knots(damn fast).
I sail boats and boards.
In fact when I go out on the boat or the board(windsurfer and kite board) I tell people I'm going sailing.They all seem to understand what Im doing.
k4s

[Chris Ostlind]

But, but... Doug! I'm aghast at your willful promotion of this boat. That design has a bow mounted wand. Have you dropped your raging passion for all things midshipped in this regard? ;-)

Chris

From the Daily sail: ( www.madforsailing.com )
-----------
Following a deal with Bladerider, Puma's mini il mostros to be at all 11 of the Volvo stopover ports
Puma Sailing has partnered with Bladerider International to showcase a duo of fully Puma-branded foiling Moths at all 11 Volvo Ocean Race Stopover cities. Crewed by world class Moth sailors, the mini ‘il mostros’ will provide entertainment for spectators as they blast around the harbour each day in every port.

Bladerider Moths are one of the fastest growing small boat classes in the world. Lifting out of the water in just five knots of winds and achieving boat speeds of over 25 knots in 20 knots of breeze, these boats dart around on their hydrofoils just like their namesakes, moths in the night. Attracting crowds of astounded onlookers, the Puma Moths will be quite a spectacle for each of the Volvo race villages around the world. In addition to the race stopovers, Puma and Bladerider will also enter the Puma Moths in local Moth regattas where they coincide with stop-overs.
pix with permission of James Boyd: (click on image)

[Chris Ostlind]

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

Bladerider Moths ...these boats dart around on their hydrofoils just like their namesakes, moths in the night.

Geez, and here I thought all that Moths did was spin in circles around the nearest lightbulb before they meet their maker on the hot surface. Not unlike the mythical Icarus.... ;-)

Chris

[RHough]

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

From this site:
The Background...

The Laser was selected as the Men's Single Hander Event in the 2008 Olympic Games but in November 2008, the ISAF Council will make a decision on the most suitable Class/Equipment for the Men's Single Hander Event in 2012.
The Status...

Option 1: The Bladerider FX Moth - cheaper alternative to the carbon version.
Weight: approx 40kg (fully rigged)
Price: 7.750 Euro or US$11,500


Option 2: The Bladerider RX Moth - lighter alternative to the fiberglass version
Weight: approx 32kg (fully rigged)
Price: 9.750 Euro or US$13,950
The Requirement...

the reality ...

Laser $5200 USD new. 100,000 + older boats available for sailing programs. $800-1000 buys a complete boat in decent condition. For the price of one high tech, fragile POS moth, I can equip my entire Junior program with decent training boats for an Olympic Class. If one or two kids go on to National and International Competition they can pick up a very good boat for $3000-5000 USD and have $5000 for travel expense etc.

The Olympics should be a contest of Athletes, not a contest of equipment. One of the reasons the Tornado was dropped was expense, now you want to see a 2x more expensive boat with no local fleet support replace the most popular single hander in recent history? Are you trying to kill junior sailing programs completely and limit the sport to the elite than can afford $13,000 toys?

It would make much more sense to kill the Finn and keep the Laser. When I start hearing that my juniors are bored with Lasers and the parents that pay the bills decide that want to fund a fleet of foilers and the full time staff and spares that would be required to keep them sailing, then maybe I'll listen.

Doug H makes a good point, will a OD Moth Class in the Olympics kill the development side? Would the Olympics benefit from a development class, were the boats are obsolete every 6-12 months.

Moths in the Olympics is bad for Moths, bad for the Olympics, and bad for the sport.

[RHough]

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

No, its not: no sailboat has yet set the 500m record over 50. Hydroptere is the first sailboat in history to have had a momentary top speed over 52 knots. Those are the facts unless you throw out the definition of sailing along with the definition of boat.
========
Your attempt to put Mirabaud in the same category as a kiteboard is ridiculous: Mirabaud can support its entire three person crew in ZERO wind-a kiteboard cannot support its crew without moving.

Gee Doug, remember when I said that boats with powered systems were not sailboats, and you said they are?

Now, you are claiming that boats everyone accepts as sailboats are not sailboats?

The WSSR guys accept the powered systems boats for sailing speed records, the same guys accept kite boards as sailboats.

If your once beloved canting keel, powerwinched abortions are sailboats, so are kite boards. Same authority says so.

I disagree-there are much more expensive Olympic Classes and no Olympic class requires as much from its crew or rewards the crew-and spectators as well. Denying Olympic status for the Foiler is bad for juniors, bad for the Olympics and very bad for the sport. Ditching the fastest boat in the Olympics
was a big mistake-not approving a boat nearly as fast and less than half the cost is extraordinarily shortsighted.

[RHough]

I don't know anyone outside this forum that has any interest in foiling sailboats at all. I witnessed first hand the lack of interest when one other than Rohan Veal himself sailed a bladerider off the beach at Valencia during the AC. My buddy and I were the ONLY people that stopped to chat. EVERYONE else didn't care one little bit.

The foiling Moth is a novelty, a sidebar to sailing in general.

Here is a little test.

Find your local Bladerider dealer. Not how long it takes to locate your local point of support.

Do the same for a Laser.

One boat is mail order out of Australia, the other is available in literally 100's of locations worldwide.

I'm close to the water as often as I can be. I have NEVER seen a foiling moth except that once in Valencia. They are lunatic fringe boats, that is not a knock, just an observation. I happen to like the lunatic fringe, that does not make the boat a candidate for Olympic status.

If sailing is to become more popular, it has to attract the mainstream. The O'pen Bic has the right idea, build on what is there, keep the juniors interested. Popular, available (inexpensive) boats that are easy to sail are the key to growing the sport.

It is the Olympics. Is there a need for a new discus design? Why not carbon fibre frisbees?

Do you want sailing to become less available to "the people" or more available?

Didn't the Moth Class decide that they didn't want to pursue Olympic Status?

[Chris Ostlind]

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

I disagree-there are much more expensive Olympic Classes and no Olympic class requires as much from its crew or rewards the crew-and spectators as well.

This comment is highly subjective and points to hyperbole, rather than fact. All of this is relative to the person viewing the event and nothing more.

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

Denying Olympic status for the Foiler is bad for juniors, bad for the Olympics and very bad for the sport.

More hyperbole driven, subjective commentary which is entirely relative to whomever may be involved at the time

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

Ditching the fastest boat in the Olympics was a big mistake-not approving a boat nearly as fast and less than half the cost is extraordinarily shortsighted.

Aside from the fact that I wish that the Tornado had not been dumped, the rest of this is of the same component as the statements above. Business shortsightedness is, once again, a relative term and completely subjective as it might be applied to any arena of discussion. In this case, there are more than likely considerable numbers of individuals who feel otherwise, making the subjective arguments above, more or less moot.

If one wishes to make an argument in support of a particular craft and its relevancy for the Olympics, one might wish to consider that the use of a fact derived presentation, rather than highly subjective comments, will be received with a much more open attitude.