Moth on Foils: 31.1 knots (35.8 mph)

You used the words "widely separated skill levels"- clearly thats not true or Amac would not have Martin WORKING WITH HIM to develop the KA board sails-among the best in the world. In this kind of two boat testing the guys worked closely together to try to determine the characteristics of both boats and I think the results are relevant. One of my interests would be in seeing the foiler faster over 18 knots- an area where it was weak compared to the board. From a business perspective the performance of the foiler in light air is great since those are the predominate conditions most people sail in.
But anyway you look at it the foilers are not even close to their potential yet. From flying in even lighter air to much faster top end speed there is a high likelyhood of very significant improvement. These results can serve as a benchmark for that.

[Chris Ostlind]

Doug, it was all right there in a quote from Chris Thompson when he posted:

Originally Posted by CT 249

AMAC scored a 2nd, four 3rds and a 4th in the Moth worlds. Despite two sad DNFs, he was 5th overall (great effort, esp. in addition to creating the BRs).

Martin, by his own admission, is a long way behind the world's best FW sailors. In the most recent results I can find, the 2005 Oceanics, Love was 35th out of 45.

Obviously one cannot draw many conclusions between a sailor whose best place is 23rd out of 45 (still a good effort in a very hot fleet), with a sailor whose best place is 2nd out of about 65. That would not be logical, unless you were trying to get some PR which BR obviously are.

So let's compare Martin to the 3rd-placed sailor (as that is where AMAC normally finished in the Moth worlds) in the Formula Oceanics....In the only two races where times are available, Martin finished about his normal spot yet he was 24.5% SLOWER than the 3rd placed sailor.

Now unless you have better, more current, world level results for these two sailors, then my comment stands; "They are widely separated skill levels"

My further comment also stands with regards to the relevance of the results. I notice that you have chosen not to comment on the fact that excessive variables essentially destroy the validity of the comparison. There is no benchmark, Doug. It's anecdotal evidence at best.

This stuff, by comparison to proper data, is not much more than marketing puff disguised as research. Don't be shocked, it's done all the time. It's up to the individual reading the material to fall for it or not.

As to why Amac has Martin working with him... That could be for all sorts of reasons. He may be one of those dudes who is a great test pilot, who can give substantive feedabck about the rig, board, whatever, while at the same time, not being able to crack the top ten in results. There are lots of quality drivers of all sorts of vehicles like that and they get to stay connected to their chosen sport through another skill they possess. The communication process with designers is paramount and perhaps that's his strong point. Still doesn't make the comparison any more powerful.

So, here's the million dollar question (literally), Doug... Even if the Moth foiler could be diddled with enough to get low speed flying with high speed potential... (mind you, this will add yet more complexity to an already fiddly boat)

how are ya' ever gonna match the retail price point, ease of sailing, time to rig and portability present in the board rig?

I won't even ask about the comparison between foilers and kite craft... cause there ain't one.

[CT 249]

It was interesting to see Phil's statement that the speeds in the KA test were similar to the experience gained when starting nationally-ranked Moth sailors against nationally-ranked Formula racers. That seems to be a MUCH better indication of speed, and perhaps an indication that the KA/BR test is fairly accurate. However, the KA/BR test clearly isn't the best way to work out comparative speed, which is what it implied.

I have a good idea of the straight-line speed of windsurfers of Martin's (high) standard. It is generally slower than the world's best. It's not just getting around the corners - much of the time it's a sheer straight-line speed advantage of knots. As Martin (who,let me say once more, is a fine sailor) says, the difference is so huge that he can get lapped in two-lap races, especially (by Martin's own account on the Seabreeze forum) in the marginal planing stuff. OKay, the same happens in Moths - that merely underlines the huge difference in speed that a difference in skill creates in such craft.

Therefore this test is not definitive, as it implied it was. It's a press release......that's all.

[Phil Stevo]

Chris,
Martin might get lapped in FW regattas but Rohan also laps everyone outside the first 10 -12 in our moth nationals when its 15-20kts.

AMAC is a pretty reasonable board sailor too so may have assisted Martin in getting more than normal from the FW. Even if AMAC too is an old fart.

Straight lining is a reasonable test of craft, its when you have to chose a course and turn corners that the race sailors' skills make much more diference.

[Chris Ostlind]

I guess you'll have to pardon my uppity manner in all this, Stevo. Apparently, I have mistakenly read the posting from the Bladerider folks, by way of Doug Lord, as inclusive with regards to the nuanced sailing one sees in a wide range of wind conditions. I believe the quote from Bladerider was:

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

FROM THE BLADERIDER SITE SLIGHTLY EDITED:
The Bladerider Experiment

KA Ambassador Martin Love has spent many hours with KA chief designer Andrew McDougall perfecting the new designs for the 08 KA Formula.
What better way to test the allround performance of the Formula than against the X8 in a variety of conditions.

This is from post #573 if a revisit is appropriate.

Of course, you are right that drag racing is only a small part of the overall mastery of one's craft. I mistakenly was led to believe that an allround performance situation was being presented.

I've seen that mastery many times when, for instance, a very good multihull sailor, such as Randy Smyth, proceeds to pull away from the fleet on long runs, both upwind and down. No delicate "rounding the mark" sail handling in evidence, just a flat out better set of detail oriented skills for extracting the most out of his boat in a drag race with other, equally rigged, craft.

There is nothing in all this that denigrates the skills of either pilot in the posted comparison. Both of them are much better sailors than am I on the chosen boats, so I'm not anywhere even close to calling one of them out for marginal skill sets.

The above posts, collectively, speak for themselves. The original letter from Bladerider strikes me as more marketing material than rigorous substance from which one can draw any reasonable conclusion. Marketing is, by its very nature, prone to larger than life claims. Take it for what it is worth.

[Chris Ostlind]

Just for a few laughs, I went back to the front end of this big ass thread to see how long it has been since a Moth broke its own transitory (and questionable) momentary speed record, as shown in the title of this thread.

So, the time span is 13 months now (and counting) with nothing at all of mention to brag about in this area of claimed high speeds. Have the assembled Mothies taken a vacation from claiming big numbers already? Have the foilers hit the wall posed by their zest for low speed take-off functions? Has righting moment of these tiny dudes finally become more than a guy of Rohan's size can handle? What gives boys?

Our guy in tow, Doug Lord, hasn't had one word to say about this whole thing in the interim save for the bogus fluff surrounding the, "we got the software wrong on our tweaky speed machine and our top-end claims are all bunk", episode out of England.

Here's the claim as it went down back in '06 in this quote from Doug Lord's post:

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

Incredibly, the Moth speed record has gone from the low 20's a year ago to Rohan Veals new record of 27.9(32mph).

From Rohan Veal(Note both the UK guys and Rohan use the Velocitek 12 channel GPS speedometer)

Subject: Australian Moth Mailing List - New moth speed record - 27.9 knots!
sorry to do this to you sam, but it is time to up the anti and aim for 30 knots now. don't worry, i didn't believe it when i saw it either but i checked my jocks afterwards and they were well stained.... the 10 second average on this run was 23.3 knots in about 20-22 knots. -r

Doug was so clearly smitten by the flash to such greatness out of the foilers that he was beside himself with glee. Such a short time, Doug said, for this kind of advancement. Well, now that it's been more than year, where's the equal and humble recognition of the apparent limitations we see with absolutely no mention of pushing the envelope higher?

Just a fair and balanced recognition, Doug… you don't have to prostrate yourself before the stoning mobs.

Chris

[Phil Stevo]

The foil moths seem to have topped out at about 24kts. No one is now building gear aiming for higher speed records, but as you say trying for more all round performance like early take off.

Its a function of what foil section and area is needed for take off in moderate winds against what is needed to sustain high speeds. I know of a couple of people with small high speed foils which have never been used in races but which might be used for speed attempts when the time and conditions are right.
But what is the point if it is not a race worthy moth but just a speed freek? Even it they get up closer to 30 kts, the specialist boards and big machines are way faster than that.

A bit before Rohan did 27.9 knots last year Sam Pascoe did 26.3. Granted these were not 10 second averages but Rohans was recorded on a 12 channel Velocitek. One of the Velocitek developers said that Rohans peak speed was not a spike because it was only 4 knots above his 10 second average.
-----------------
John Ilett said last year :" a Moth designed purely for speed may well do over 40 knots but it would not likey win any races."
About that Alan Smith( one of the developers of the first two person bi-foiler and first spinnaker carrying bi-foiler) said: " John is correct-a "Moth" specificaly setup to sail in 20 knot winds, a 70kg crew,extended wings and smaller foils. But it will not win races even in 15knots."
40 knots + ?! cool....
I'd like to see a Moth or Mothlike bi-foil monofoiler do its thing at Weymouth or whereever-speed is its own reward...

[foilr]

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

40 knots + ?! cool....

I like the use of my limbs too much to sail a Moth at 40 knots.

I must be soft.

Originally Posted by foilr

I like the use of my limbs too much to sail a Moth at 40 knots.

I must be soft.

----------
Well, luckily for the rest of us mere mortals there are people driven to go "Faster!,Faster!"
despite the potential harm to life and limb.
To my knowledge a souped up bi-foil monofoiler -whether called a Moth or some other bug-has not yet done it's thing at Weymouth(or whereever) and it sure has the potential to make history.
Soft? Probably not since you just got second in the heavy conditions at the Moth Worlds-congratulations!

[BWD]

"Faster!,Faster!"

...50.2 , just could not resist

Absolutely fantastic:
Rohan and friend

[Busman1965]

During my college days, I worked for Dr. Sam Bradfield, one of the fathers of the sailing hydrofoil. I spent many hours sailing them in all conditions, and on many 'round the bouys races. Foilers are great fun, but have a very narrow "groove" that they really perform well. When racing, we spent alot of time hullborn, and alot less on the foils. The boats were amazing on the foils, but average when hullborn. Foilers are also very touchy, I have scars and a wrenched neck still, 20 years later!!! I doubt they will ever catch on in a big way, as they are too complex, delicate, and difficult to sail for the average joe. When the conditions are right, its great sport to go fly around at 20-25knts, but its alot of work to do it! In many races, we usually finished in mid fleet, but when the conditions were right, we could pull a horizon job on the rest of the boats. The moth does not seem to be any big deal....heck we were getting 25knts in the late 1980's......

If only Dr. Sam could hear you now....
The Moth foiler is a big deal because:
1) It is the first monohull dinghy foiler not sailed standing up to be sailed on just two foils.
Dr. Sam and Tom Haman both told me that was impossible shortly before I showed them pictures of the first bi-foiler....
2) The newest Moth foiler's can take off in very light air-not matched by any previous foiler of any type.
3) The Moth foiler has had to compete for dominance within a class that had developed refined "seahugging" versions for many years-and the foiler has proven to be dominant in the
class.
4) The Moth foiler has proven faster around a course in foiling conditions than most dinghies and catamarans under 20'.
5) Last and probably least important the class record for the Moth still stands at 27.9 knots recognized by both Bladerider and Fastacraft and others. No one has -to the best of my knowledge- yet modified a stock Moth foiler to achieve the fastest speed possible which, I'd bet, could be in the 40 knot range..
--------------
The Moth foiler has extended foiling performance like no other boat before it -with "Veal Heel" upwind and low wind speed takeoff(claimed to be 5 knots on a Bladerider with large main).
And as I've said so many times: the bi-foil technology pioneered by the Moth has sparked a revolution in monohull speed(in boats you don't stand up to sail) that is unmatched in history. It has sparked a technology that has already been experimented with on International 14's,RS 600's ,RS 700's, 49er's, and on the Aussie 18. As well as sparking several one offs that try to improve on the Moth-one of which will someday be the Peoples Foiler.
Its a big deal,a really big deal....
And one of the biggest deals about the Moth foiler is the inspiration it provides to a whole new generation of sailors:


Check out the sheeting angles!

[Chris Ostlind]

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

Its a big deal,a really big deal....
And one of the biggest deals about the Moth foiler is the inspiration it provides to a whole new generation of sailors:

Or more likely, instead of being inspired, their parents pull them off the water because some dumbass sailed through their fleet at high speed with no apparent thought about the safety of the kids.

I live in the mountains of Utah and I liken this photo to one of a youthfully insensitive skier barreling down the fall line at your favorite mountain resort, right through the middle of a bunch of kids learning to ski.

When the ski patrol sees this kind of crap, they yank the fool off the mountain and tell him to get a clue before sending his butt packing.

What in the world would make you think this is cool, Doug? It's one of the dumbest things you've ever posted. Like the lake isn't big enough for this bozo to stay away from the kids until they were well clear of his hotrod zone. What happens in this scenario if the tiller connection fails and the Moth veers right into the Opti fleet?

I realize that you've never had kids on whose behalf you would fight with your blood, but..... What in the hell is wrong with you when perceived coolness is more important to you than the safety of kids? Sheeting angle my ass.