Moth on Foils: 31.1 knots (35.8 mph)

[Chris Ostlind]

Actually, Marco, you might want to consider the complete landslide of written copy and photographs that come out of the Americas' Cup campaign teams on a daily basis before you say something like that about a class with fewer than 200 boats.

I love the enthusiasm from those with a personal investment in foiling boats, but it has a long way to go before it comes even close to the totally established forms of boating already doing business. Even the 30 year old Hobie 16 fleets on this planet produce more total buzz than any foiling boat on any given day.

Ya gotta put yer pants on one day at a time.

Chris

[tmark]

Originally Posted by Chris Ostlind

Even the 30 year old Hobie 16 fleets on this planet produce more total buzz than any foiling boat on any given day.
Chris

Nope, no way ... everytime I meet a new sailor the foiling moth somehow comes up ... and I can't remember the last time someone interjected with a "have I got one for you" note about a Hobie 16 ... I bet you can't either ... granted, there is lot's of skepticism about the moth and a general wait and see attitude, but you don't have to scratch hard to find the buzz ...

[Chris Ostlind]

Here's what you need to do, then...

get your fanny onto a suitable Google equipped computer and start querying Hobie Fleets around the world. You'll soon find that there are incredibly more boats being sailed, actively, by way more people than the Global Moth Fleet ever envisioned possible.

Look to see how many boats turned out for the various Nationals all over the world and then how many showed up for the Hobie Worlds. The shear numbers dwarf anything that turns out to any Moth event. Big numbers of people make for big amounts of conversations regarding their boats and they do it on a daily basis.

Ask the sail lofts in your area as to who buys the most stuff for their boats... Mothies or Hobie Sailors. Buyers of stuff also make for tons of Buzz.

There's just no way around it, the numbers alone swamp the Moth talk, and my guess is that it always will.

If your position is true, then you also feel there's more Buzz about Ferrari (anything) than about Chevy trucks? Now, if you are talking Hot, as in Martha Stewart, flavor of the month, Hot... then I guess you have me there. Did you know that Martha's new Spring Collection with the, oh-so buzzy, pastel trends is now be racked at K-Mart? I think that if the Mothies tied their sail accents and hull colors into Martha's latest design ideas, there'd be a real synergy of ownership and then, maybe, you'd have that Buzz thing you mention. Never mind that she's a felon. ;-)

Chris

[Stephen Ditmore]

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

I'm not 100% sure but I think the International boat fits within the US rules but not the other way around. If somebody knows the facts please post them here.

Scott's the guy in charge where U.S. Modern Moths are concerned, so this is just interpretation of what Scott has said, but my understanding is YES, any legal International Moth is a legal U.S. Modern Moth.

I think any legal U.S. Modern Moth would also be a legal International Moth with its spinnaker left ashore and with any required measuring in, getting a proper sail number, etc, from the international authority.

For anyone not familiar with the Classic Moth / Modern Moth distinction in the U.S., see www.mothboat.com.

Interesting that KA Sails says they'll have 10 Bladeriders working their way up the U.S. East Coast in the spring. Dougie.... if you're concerned about being too heavy, perhaps you could train up a local college sailor or lady friend, obtain use of one of the Bladeriders, and come together to New Jersey for the Brigantine Regatta in June. How are you as a sailing photographer?

Cheers,
Stephen

[Crag Cay]

I'm sorry, but I agree with tmark. The last time a Hobbie 16 caused the same sort of 'buzz' was in the late 70's when the film 'Sharing the Wind' came out. Everyone could quote bits of the dialogue and the yacht club bar was always packed every time the 16mm projector was set up and that film was shown.

I was an officer on a large square rigger at the time, and even on that great lumbering thing, every command to 'sheet in' was always followed by the crew replying 'and Max Out'.

Foilers are having a similar impact on the water front today. People want to see movies of them in action, talk about them, fantasise about 'what if they put them on .......etc, etc'.

At times, I have been annoyed by sailing's obsession with the 'latest thing' and have been pissed off that established classes have been ignored. But it is the way of the world, and any personal animosity there maybe between people and Doug can not disguise the fact that 'foilers' are flavour of the moment. Whether they prove to be the greatest thing to happen to sailing, I don't know. But then the Hobbie 16 never did do anything round here either.

[RHough]

I think that looking at the "buzz" in forums that cater to those that fancy themselves as more into sailing that the average hick from Saskatchewan gives a false impression of Moths and foilers being hot topics.

Go to a site like www.sailboatowners.com and see how much "buzz" you find about the Moth.

Go to the general membership meeting of a yacht club that does not have a leading edge junior program and see how much buzz about Moths you find.

I think you will find that most sailors are not interested in high performance dinghies (or Hobie's).

If you walk down the docks at a marina full of Beneteaus, Catalinas, Hunters, etc and ask the skippers what they think about Moth's the responses will probably be:

Moth's aren't a problem on my boat, I have a cedar lined hanging locker.

or

What's a Moth?

You want buzz in the sailing community at large? Invent a waste management system to replace holding tanks and the need for pump-outs.

[RHough]

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

AND whats more he has done 31.5 knots average over a 500m course!

Congratulations to him and the Moth class! And to the pioneers of two foil monofoiler technology!

The timed run is all that matters. Bravo! Very well done.

31.5 knots for 30 seconds is a new goal for the other Moths.

Mono = One

Bi = Two

Two foil monofoiler is an oxymoron. Kind of like a two wheeled uni-cycle

[tmark]

Originally Posted by RHough

I think that looking at the "buzz" in forums that cater to those that fancy themselves as more into sailing that the average hick from Saskatchewan gives a false impression of Moths and foilers being hot topics.

Go to a site like www.sailboatowners.com and see how much "buzz" you find about the Moth.

Go to the general membership meeting of a yacht club that does not have a leading edge junior program and see how much buzz about Moths you find.

I think you will find that most sailors are not interested in high performance dinghies (or Hobie's).

If you walk down the docks at a marina full of Beneteaus, Catalinas, Hunters, etc and ask the skippers what they think about Moth's the responses will probably be:

Moth's aren't a problem on my boat, I have a cedar lined hanging locker.

or

What's a Moth?

I'm not making it up ... every sailor I talk to will eventually come around to the "hey have you seen that moth" conversation ... from Canada's east coast to west coast, they are talking about it and i'm not sure there's a foiling moth in the country ...

... you gotta admit it, they do give people pause for thought ... that doens't mean a Hobie Sailor is going to talk about Moths more than Hobies; why would he ... likewise it doesn't mean my club is all of sudden going to dump its program in favour a foiler or even spend a moment discussing it in the committee room, but I'll bet my bottom dollar that they've all seen footage ...

as for newsgroups forums and blah blah blah ... they represent squat about what most of us talk about with a beer in hand ...

as for the catalinas etc etc etc etc ... alot of those folks still think carbon fiber is a breakfast cereal ( ... don't shoot!!! ...)

regards and cheers to all

[RHough]

Originally Posted by tmark

as for newsgroups forums and blah blah blah ... they represent squat about what most of us talk about with a beer in hand ...

as for the catalinas etc etc etc etc ... alot of those folks still think carbon fiber is a breakfast cereal ( ... don't shoot!!! ...)

regards and cheers to all

Exactly my point.

I work in a rig shop. The racer's and wanna be racers are aware of the Moth and other fast boats. The majority of boaters (sail and power) are not concerned about high performance dinghies.

As interesting as the Moth is (it has always been a fringe boat), very little of the technology that makes them interesting will transfer to the Catalina crowd. Boats that make heavy use of crew dynamics have little in common with the mainstream of boats with 200+ D/L ratios and SA/D ratios under 17:1.

You only get the impression that Moth's and other foilers are a hot topic if you look in forums like this one, read magazines that cater to high performance sailing, and talk to people that share your interests.

Foiling moths have been around for about 5-6 years. There are many designs that have an entire life cycle less than that. IMO, the foiling Moth hasn't even taken it's own class by storm, much less sailing as a whole. 5 years to get the majority of the boats at the WC's on foils is not much of a revolution. Compare how fast the Moth fleet has changed to foils to how fast they convert to new sail materials. I doubt the change form Dacron to Mylar laminates took 5 years to effect the majority of the WC fleet.

The first bi -foil Moth sailed in 1999 and it has been non-stop development and refinement since. Foiler Moths have revolutionized racing in the Moth class over the course of this period and the technology will revolutionize the sailing of many sizes of boat before it is all over-from a Peoples Foiler to 18 footers to sportboats to large ocean racers- the bi-foil monofoiler is an incredible advance in foiling and particularly in monohull speed.
It is a technology in it's infancy-you ain't seen nothin yet.....

[Chris Ostlind]

So, tell me something, oh mighty turban capped, Memsaheeb wizzened one...

When will the Foiling Moths, at last, be out of their infancy and actually doing something with themselves that looks like a mature sport?

Memsaheeb swirls his darkened bowl of tea and stares blankly into the turbulent surface. "Uhh, looks like, Uhhhh looks like Karnak has to go now..."

You let us know when the transition from babies to little kids takes place. We'll keep the playground up to date for ya.

A software error was discovered in the GPS speedometer used for the Pascoe "record" and it reduces speed down to 25 knots or so. Rohans record of 27.9 knots(32mph) still stands.
In the future I'll wait a week before asking Jeff to make an update. It is apparent that these guys are taking this a bit more seriously and actually reviewing the facts.
Sooner or later.....

[Chris Ostlind]

So, this is that Infancy Thing showing itself, I assume. Five days of claimed glory and Pooof!

How embarrassing. And here you had yourself all puffy and proud only to find that your baby has spit-up on himself and your tuxedo. When one lives by the techno-gadgets... one dies by the techno-gadgets.

Well, maybe next time.

It is apparent that these guys are taking this a bit more seriously and actually reviewing the facts.

A bit more seriously? Just how serious are humans supposed to be when they spout-off about 500 meter speed accomplishments? Seems to me that it's all just more hype if there is no rigorous accounting for the instrumentation.

I go back to my original suggestion; Have the foilers get their collective butts over to Weymouth to run with the big boys. How far of a drive can that be for Pascoe? How far did he have to drive to get to Denmark last summer? Maybe there is more speed to be had in these boats, I don't know. But as long as gadget amateurs are doing the recording, who's to say just how accurate any of these claims might be?

Interestingly enough, this "new and adjusted" speed of Pascoe's isn't even higher than his previous claim back in May of this year at 26.3 knots... or is that one wanky as well due to weird software?

Do make sure to correct the title of the thread to reflect the goofiness of all this, will you? At least you had the sack to take the truth public before one of us discovered it ourselves and tossed you on the coals. Perhaps something like... "Foiler fumbles hyped speed claims" would be a proper headline for the thread?

Sooner or later, is right, Doug. Sooner or later, this will happen again, just like the decisive bag wrapped around Veal's foil at the Worlds in Denmark. When you dance to the Priestess of Speed as your muse, you dance to the wicked realities of her laughter as well.

This must be such a blow to you personally.

[DGreenwood]

Chris
Once, after I had completely demoralized one of his friends for a stupid comment, my brother scolded me "when somebody opens his mouth and his brains fall out on the floor, you don't have to run up and punt them".

Now who is chideing who? Kind of a long route to telling him to shut-up, don't you think?
But, I must say, more civil and certainly alot more fun.

Doug
The moths are cool...they aren't going to revolutionize sailing. Hell most of the sailing comunity still thinks the bulb keel is revolutionary.

[wet feet]

Yet again we have Mr Ostlind getting on Doug's case.It was a performance reported in good faith and the error was recorded when it came to light.An honourable course of action.The world awaits Mr Ostlind's quantum leap for performance sailing.