Moth on Foils: 31.1 knots (35.8 mph)

Given what's going on now in the Moth class with the Bladerider and Prowler, and the Foiling 18 and I14's by Moth foiler pioneer John Ilett and some still secret projects I thought I'd just quote this post:

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

The development of the foiler Moth is one of the most significant developments in sailing in the last 100 years; it is an extraordinary little boat that has a long and growing record of whipping most other sailboats under 20' including most multihulls. The speed increases posted by the Moth guys over the last few years in their class "contest" are simply fantastic especially the ones over the last few months that are all being recorded by the same extremely accurate GPS speedometer. Exciting stuff and extremely significant in what it portends for small and large boat sailing now and in the future.
This is a revolution in sailing that started with the Moth but will have a profound effect across a wide spectrum of sailboat design the limits of which are not even close to being fully understood. Major large boat sailing programs are looking at designs that utilize the bi-foil hydrofoil system pioneered by the Moth; it's looking possible that large ballasted keelboats may be able to adopt this technology and other new technologies such as on-deck movable ballast and produce incredible boats with the selfrighting charateristics of leadbellies and the speed of multihullls.
What is happening here is the begining of one of the greatest changes ever to happen in sailing and sailing design.
And I congratulate the pioneers like Rohan and John Ilett,Simon Payne, Sam Pascoe, Adam May, and many others that have started the ball rolling despite the early prognostications by the "anti-foilers" in the Moth class and elsewhere.
This is so much fun to watch unfold with the pace of development measurable in just weeks from one benchmark to the next-cool stuff ,guys! Keep up the great work-and I WILL post the results here....

Exciting times!
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Note: see page 23 for some of the latest updates
on the Moth, including Rohans comments on the Bladerider(by KA Sails), Simon Payne's(Moth World Champion) comments on the Prowler(Fastacraft) and more recent info including the url for the very latest Mothballs- the US Moth Newsletter.

[RHough]

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

The development of the foiler Moth is one of the most significant developments in sailing in the last 100 years; it is an extraordinary little boat that has a long and growing record of whipping most other sailboats under 20' including most multihulls.

No. You repeating the same claim over and over does not make a long and growing record of anything except proof that you have nothing new to say. It's like an 8-track ... there is no end.

Funny little boats that make good press photo-ops are not one of the most significant developments in the last 100 years. Compared to GRP hulls and Dacron Sails for instance, foiling Moths are just a sidebar to the 100 year significance list.

The Laser ... now that is a significant boat. Over 70,000 built (IIRC).

Compare to the Bladerider ... planned production of 400 ... YAWN ... 16 a month ... WOW!

Even at 32 a month (enough to have EVERY sailor at the Moth Worlds in/on a Bladerider) ... it would take ...
One Hundred and Eighty Two (182) YEARS for there to be 70,000 Bladeriders.
At one point in time there was ONE factory building 100 Lasers a day.

Can you begin to see just how small the Moth niche is?

To call these boats one of the most significant developments in the last 100 years only highlights your tenuous grasp of reality.

Foiling dinghies will have no impact on sailing in general. Catalina 22's and Mac 26's will still be selling long after the Bladerider is dead. Marinas will still be full of boats with GRP Hulls, 20 year old Dacron Sails, and fixed keels for the next 100 years. Moths will still be a sidebar.

[Dan S]

Originally Posted by RHough

No. You repeating the same claim over and over does not make a long and growing record of anything except proof that you have nothing new to say. It's like an 8-track ... there is no end.

Rhough,

If you ever find yourself in Illinois, let me know I will be happy to buy you a beer. I can think of a few other sailors who would buy you a beer as well.

Originally Posted by RHough

No. You repeating the same claim over and over does not make a long and growing record of anything except proof that you have nothing new to say. It's like an 8-track ... there is no end.
Foiling dinghies will have no impact on sailing in general.

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Oh, I don't know Mr. Hough: there's now more evidence than ever before that the foiling revolution STARTED by the Moth class is spreading to other boats/classes -first a couple of I14's, then an RS 600, now an 18-what could possibly be next?
These are early days for a technological revolution that is not limited to one class or to dinghies or just to sportboats or just to 30' keel boats or 40' keel boats or.. well, you get the picture. That's what's so cool about this: there is so much more to come!

[casavecchia]

A Moth foiler will be on display at the Genova Boat Show in the Harken booth.
From IMCA Italy thanks heaps to Harken for the opportunity.
Marco.

From the KA SAIL Newsletter:
KA SAIL showcasing Bladerider in conjunction with German Distributor On Sail at the Hamburg Boat Show in Germany from 28 October to 5 November. Rohan Veal along with Christian from On Sail will be on the stand.
New Bladerider Ambassadors:
Michael Boode ,Geelong, Australia
Aaron Gregory , Ocean Grove, Australia
Sebastian Josse, France
Bertrand Coste, France
Kalle Coster, Holland
Peter Holrun,Great Britain
Fernando Belo, Portugal
Peter Becker, New York, USA
Stu Saffer,New York, USA
Bora Gulari,Detroit, USA
=================================
According to KA SAIL Velocitek has introduced a new improved GPS speedometer with advanced download facillities and improved functionality including VMG.
Same as S5 but with the ability to record over 5 hours of GPS data. GPS data can be downloaded from the S10 with USB cable to any PC running Windows XP .Data can be analyzed using Google Earth and GPS Action Replay.
The original S5 was developed specifically for Rohan Veal's Moth campaign and is used by several people in the Moth on Foils speed "contest".

[Chris Ostlind]

Half the postings on this page are by one person.

Hmmm?

Check this out; it's Phil Stevensons new(old) experimental Moth Foiler:
Australian Moth Class Association :: View topic - Chainsaw minimalized
Address:http://www.moth.asn.au/forum/viewtopic.php?t=548
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Seeing Phil's "new" boat today reminded me of this post #90 from Foiler1 Grand Prix. If you have fairly good woodworking skills(or want to improve them) you ,too, could build a foiler Moth:

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

I moved this post here so that the building comments are more or less in the same place...This contains the pricing referred to in Steve Clark's post #88....
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For those interested in the Foiler Moth there is hope in the USA. Check out Dinghy Anarchy(under Sailing Anarchy Forums) and there are several threads regarding the homebuilding of the boat with input from Steve Clark and Phil Stevenson. Steve seems to have come up with a price around $3800-including mast and sail. In his list foils are $500 but I don't think they are hydrofoils but I'm not positive.
From an expense standpoint ready built foils from Fastacraft are expensive but first class and they can get you going without having to reinvent the wheel. Even the seahugger Moth needs a rudder foil- I don't know whether the aft seahuger foil and aft hydrofoil are equivalent but John Ilett would. You could sail the foiler Moth as a seahugger with buoyancy pods until you felt comfortable enough to try foiling in the right conditions. Even with Johns foils and the rest of the stuff on Steves list** you are talking about getting one of the fastest sailboats under 20' for in the vicinity of $7-8000 ready to fly* + your labor. Which is about the same price as new Hoot and half the price of a new Voodoo. Bang for the buck is unexcelled with the foiler Moth!
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Cost estimate USA International Moth, see
post 186:
Sailing Anarchy Forums
Address:http://www.sailinganarchy.com/forums...646995&st=100&
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Foils- My personal opinion is that no one should attempt to build the hydrofoils unless you have the capability of doing them at the highest level including using pre preg. John's foil package comes with the wand altitude sensor as well:
http://www.fastacraft.com
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* New ready to fly International Moth from Fastacraft not including shipping:$12,094 US as of today.
**edit: 3/3/06 Bill Vining has added that he forgot trampolines and estimates $500US for them.

[casavecchia]

Think Phil has done it again!
A three panel simple plywood hull, extremely cheap. No stays and spreaders. Two structural bulkheads, one in way of mast, one at centercase trunk which serves as front tying point for the racks ( the rear one being at extreme stern).
Low freeboard, low windage and reduced weight (probably in the 35 kg range). One piece trampoline, so deck can be as thin and light as you want as you don’t have to walk on it.
There’s hope for those who don’t want to spend an arm and a leg for sailing a Moth.
Marco.

[Figgy]

Originally Posted by casavecchia

There’s hope for those who don’t want to spend an arm and a leg for sailing a Moth.
Marco.

Its a great way of getting people interested in a class!
Quick question, is the Moth class driven mostly by home builders?

[casavecchia]

For a bit of Moth history have a look here:
http://www.moth-sailing.org/moth_history.html
It used to be like you say, Figgy.
The hydrofoil advent has changed it all, but many people still love to tinker with their boats.
Marco.

[RHough]

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

Check this out; it's Phil Stevensons new(old) experimental Moth Foiler:
Australian Moth Class Association :: View topic - Chainsaw minimalized
Address:http://www.moth.asn.au/forum/viewtopic.php?t=548
=============================================
Seeing Phil's "new" boat today reminded me of this post #90 from Foiler1 Grand Prix. If you have fairly good woodworking skills(or want to improve them) you ,too, could build a foiler Moth:

Somehow I don't think it is that easy. Are you saying that someone with 45 years of sailing and boat building experience and a set of foils from John Ilett should have no problem at all building a foiler? I'm sure it would be a simple matter to scale the boat up if the builder was too large to sail a Moth.

From what I've read regarding Phil Stevensons's Moth plans I think almost anyone could build a boat but I would strongly urge that a professional rig and foil set be purchased. Even doing that you're only talking about 7-8 grand for a new foiler.
As to scaling a Moth up for a larger person it would be possible as long as foil loading and most particularly Sq. ft. SA per sq.ft. foil area are kept the same.The distance from main to rudder foil has to be increased proportionately to the increase in sail area and height of CE and not just proportionately to length.It would be important to utilize pro foils and rig and a modern design that utilizes what's been learned the last 4 years or so in monofoiler design. I've heard it's been tried and didn't work too well; there is a pix on the UK site but no technical details so it's impossible to intelligently speculate why that particular boat didn't work well. The M4 is, essentially, a slightly scaled up version of a Moth See:
http://www.sailm4.co.uk/ .There is great potential for a Peoples Foiler-a "scaled up Moth" suitable for average weight people and much easier to sail especially when "low-riding".
========================
For more on the quest for a "Peoples Foiler" check out this thread; it is updated as frequently as anything new comes up:
Peoples Foiler - Sailboat Forums
Address:Peoples Foiler :aeroSKIFF™ / M4
This thread has details and drawings of my joint project with Eric Sponberg, the M4(leader of the pack in Peoples Foiler wanabes) plus as complete a listing as I've been able to come up with of other projects & ideas for production bi-foil monofoilers.

[Dan S]

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

========================
For more on the quest for a "Peoples Foiler" check out this thread; it is updated as frequently as anything new comes up:
Peoples Foiler - Sailboat Forums
Address:Removed

Boatdesign.net should be charging you for advertising, as much as you hyperlink to personal projects.

E-mail message

From: deepwater@optonline.net(Scott*Sandell) Date: Mon, Oct 2, 2006, 6:15pm To: deepwater@optonline.net (Scott Sandell) Subject: Moth News!
Sports Fans!
In the category of be-careful-what-you-wish-for comes a brief from Andy Paterson, the Axeman himself! who reports that the recent UK nationals had only eleven boats. Ten foilers, and one low rider. The low rider was third, but that skipper has since jumped on the foiling bandwagon. When you cast your ballot to join IMCA (or not), keep in mind the boat is effectively becoming that much more technical and difficult to sail. I'm all for that, but will it become an excuse not to sail? "Ahhh, my dog ate my foils, so I couldn't make Brigantine." Hmmmm? Clearly we want the opposite result! Numbers! Excitement! Thrills! World class sailing!!! It's up to you, but so far, the tally is IMCA 0, USMMCA 0. I think the dog ate your computers.
Cheers!
http://www.mothboat.com/USMMCA/newsletters.htm
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These design comments are from a friend-Alan Smith in Australia. He was intimately involved with David Luggs Flying I14 bi-foiler- the first full flying I14 and the first two person bi-foil monofoiler. Interestingly, their boat used a manual twist grip to control altitude instead of a wand. Here are his comments:
Oct. 3, 2006
Doug
*
----If you take two identical moth foilers with the same all up weight and the same foil areas the one with higher aspect foils will lift out earlier and foil faster.
----If you take two identical moth foilers with the same all up weight and identical foils the one with the foils closer to the hull will be slightly faster but may not manage the sea state as well as one with longer boards.
----Reducing foil area will increase top speed but also increase lift out speed.
----If a foil sailor were to artificially increase his weight then he would need more wind and more speed to lift out but would go faster in higher wind strengths.
----Reducing the area of the rudder foil will slightly increase the lift out speed* but increase performance once up, but fore and aft balance becomes more difficult.
----Reducing the chord (width) of the centre board will improve performance without any adverse effects provided its bending and torsional stiffness is maintained.
----Elliptical plan forms are best, but a straight taper with the tip 40% of the root chord is very nearly as good. These foils can be built lighter for the same load compared to a rectangular plan form.
----The higher the crew weight to boat weight ratio the better.
----The lightest all up weight will be first to lift out.
*alan