Moth on Foils: 31.1 knots (35.8 mph)

[RHough]

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

That's exactly right: it's only a matter of time before a Peoples Foiler changes dinghy sailing forever by providing access to the thrills pioneered in the Moth class to a much, much wider range of sailors. Only a matter of time......

I think the record is broken ...

I have not seen any numbers to indicate that dinghy sailing in general is enjoying a great increase in popularity. It seems that every new higher skill level to go faster design has had the opposite effect.

Hobie 16's are simple, as the newer cats come out that demand a greater investment of time and money and greater skill to sail, are there more beach cats or less?

Machines that get labeled the "People's ... " earn that nickname from popularity brought through ease of use, low expense, and high value for cost. Calling something the "People's Foiler" before it exists is pure hype and BS. It's not anywhere near a "people's boat" and calling it that is a vain attempt to get people to think that is something that it is not.

Quote this: There will never be a foiling sailboat that is as easy to sail as a Laser. There will never be a foiling sailboat that can compete with a Laser for price. Common sense, physics, and business reality cannot be ignored.

There ain't going to be a foiling dinghy revolution. Foils may "revolutionize" some classes to near extinction but we are never going to see 20-30 kids foiling around like we see them sailing their Opti's.

Opti's, Lasers, Folkboats, Catalina 27's, Hobie 16's ... these are "People's Boats"

" It seems that every new higher skill level to go faster design has had the opposite effect."
-----------
Oh? Talk about BS! As you can see below the advent of the foiler Moth has had a dramatic effect on Italian sailors (they will host the next Moth worlds)and I would imagine on sailors of many other countries as well. In the last two years the numbers of Moth Foiler builders has at least doubled. Moth foilers are being imported into the US and Canada for the first time! People all over the US especially in the NE, Mid Atlantic and Florida are considering or actively involved in building Moths as a direct result of the foiler Moth.

Originally Posted by casavecchia

Foilr, well said!
I am with you on all points.
All the Moths we have in Italy, 8 at the moment, were bought
because of the hydrofoils as the class before was virtually unknown.
Marco.

=========================================
As to the Peoples Foiler concept being hype or BS
here is some info from the Peoples Foiler thread:

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

Here's a list of all the boats(projects) under 20' that I know have foiled or that may foil in the future:
1) M4- the unquestioned leader as of tonight.
2) Bladerider-may or may not be a Peoples Foiler
with pods I'd say yes; with pods and the big main they talk about I'd say definitely.
3) RS 600- has foiled-no other info
4) I14's- several have flown but full flying foil systems are illegal so a spin-off might qualify.
5) 49er- somebody somewhere has a set of Fastacraft foils specifically for this boat but
that's all I know.
6) Aussie 18 reported by Baronvonwhatever appeared to have surface piercing foils and would be an unlikely candidate.
7) Steve Clarks 17-18 with surface piercing foils-maybe but unlikely with those kinds of foils.
8) Ct's mystery boat-unlikely if using surface piercing foils.( he said it used a foil system discarded by the Moth class if I understood correctly)
9) aeroSKIFF 14 -project stalled but not dead; close to the best if properly funded and succesfully executed.
10) Hoot-has some potential; see previous post # 67 and DA....
11) Aussie 18 reported by John Ilet undergoing tow tests prior to being the first 18 to sail on just two foils-probably not a "Peoples Foiler"candidate but worth watching...
Thats a lot of Peoples Foiler wanabe's-someone, somewhere, sometime from now will put it all together-count on it! And there may be others I don't know about but when I do they'll be written up here.... And good luck to us all......

----------------
And finally the intro on Simon Maguires M4 site pretty much describes a "Peoples Foiler" to a tee.Simons M4, as stated above, is the LEADING candidate to become a Peoples Foiler as of now. And Harken UK thinks the concept is a lot more than hype or BS:
Harken UK: Sponsors Sailing Dinghy Hydrofoil
Address:http://www.harken.co.uk/news/05m4.php

[Chris Ostlind]

Doubled?... as in 100 boats to 200 boats?

No, it looks like it's more like four boats to now 8 boats. Doubled, yeah sure, if you want that sort of nonsense to pass as doubled, take your doubled figure and run with it. Truth is, as we speak there are way more new Pirogue style canoes being built worldwide than there will ever be Moth Foilers. And tomorrow there will be double that number because the boat works well, it's easy to build, even easier to use and it's car toppable.. oh, did I say it's also affordable? Noen of those particular descriptors apply to the Foiling Moth, or any foiling boat of any kind that may subsequently supercede it.

This argument is so vaporous it's actually silly, Doug. Double something meaningful next time.

I live in Salt Lake City where there is a predominant religion; The Latter Day Saints, which most of you know as the Mormons. They claim to be the fastest growing religion on the planet. Well enough, and I truly wish them all well in that endeavor. Their numbers are something like 12-14 million.

The truth of the matter, which is never spoken, is that with over 1.4 billion Muslims on this planet, the peoples of the Islamic faith are experiencing something like 14 million new members, through births alone, every five months.

So, yeah Doug, that thing about foilers growing by leaps and bounds is really powerful as a statistic. When you can knock-off the numbers of OneBIC skiffs that go out the door each and every month with a similar production of foilers, you'll be showing me the value in your statements. Until then, it's only more of the same vapor that has become all too commonplace in your postings.

Please log-in with something that is statistically relevant.

[Chris Ostlind]

Actually, I really can;t wait until the day arrives when someone other than Lord has actrually gon to the trouble of buuding a boat that comes even close to the hype juggernaut. The reason?...

As soon as Doug bestows the grand tag of People's Foiler on this unsuspecting product, I wouldn't be surprised if said product developer suggests that Doug stick a wrag in it so he won't wreck the product intro.

This is much like the recent dust-up in which Foilr suggested that Doug take a vacation with the nonsense after Doug had turned on his own Mothie kin in the tiff of the ages over how to run a foiler marketing campaign.

Doug, that's very bad form for a guy who is creeping wround the edges of the foil community with nothing but a pair of foils in the trunk of his car. It's kinda like a guy who dresses-up his car with roof racks for his surfboards and then drives around the beach cities pimping his hype, having never paddled-out on even a three foot day, much less anything overhead.

In the surf community, this would get you the title of poseur.

Geez, you've got to start somewhere! The first bi-foiler in HISTORY sailed the first time only 7 years ago and since then this new technology has grown and developed to dominate the Moth class. But not only that in countless encounters the Moth on foils has beaten A-class cats, F-18's, Hobies, IC's, 49er's, I14's-mono's and multies all thrashed by the little Moth on Foils! Quite a remarkable achievement for a 7 year old sailing hydrofoil technology!! Never before in history had any sailboat sailed on just two foils-think about that! And believe me, the technology is still in it's infancy and will stun the world of sailing as time goes by.....

From the previous post(317):
==============
" It seems that every new higher skill level to go faster design has had the opposite effect."
-----------
Oh? Talk about BS! As you can see below the advent of the foiler Moth has had a dramatic effect on Italian sailors (they will host the next Moth worlds)and I would imagine on sailors of many other countries as well. In the last two years the numbers of Moth Foiler builders has at least doubled. Moth foilers are being imported into the US and Canada for the first time! People all over the US especially in the NE, Mid Atlantic and Florida are considering or actively involved in building Moths as a direct result of the foiler Moth.

Originally Posted by casavecchia

Foilr, well said!
I am with you on all points.
All the Moths we have in Italy, 8 at the moment, were bought
because of the hydrofoils as the class before was virtually unknown.
Marco.

=========================================
As to the Peoples Foiler concept being hype or BS
here is some info from the Peoples Foiler thread:

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

Here's a list of all the boats(projects) under 20' that I know have foiled or that may foil in the future:
1) M4- the unquestioned leader as of tonight.
2) Bladerider-may or may not be a Peoples Foiler
with pods I'd say yes; with pods and the big main they talk about I'd say definitely.
3) RS 600- has foiled-no other info
4) I14's- several have flown but full flying foil systems are illegal so a spin-off might qualify.
5) 49er- somebody somewhere has a set of Fastacraft foils specifically for this boat but
that's all I know.
6) Aussie 18 reported by Baronvonwhatever appeared to have surface piercing foils and would be an unlikely candidate.
7) Steve Clarks 17-18 with surface piercing foils-maybe but unlikely with those kinds of foils.
8) Ct's mystery boat-unlikely if using surface piercing foils.( he said it used a foil system discarded by the Moth class if I understood correctly)
9) aeroSKIFF 14 -project stalled but not dead; close to the best if properly funded and succesfully executed.
10) Hoot-has some potential; see previous post # 67 and DA....
11) Aussie 18 reported by John Ilet undergoing tow tests prior to being the first 18 to sail on just two foils-probably not a "Peoples Foiler"candidate but worth watching...
Thats a lot of Peoples Foiler wanabe's-someone, somewhere, sometime from now will put it all together-count on it! And there may be others I don't know about but when I do they'll be written up here.... And good luck to us all......

----------------
And finally the intro on Simon Maguires M4 site pretty much describes a "Peoples Foiler" to a tee.Simons M4, as stated above, is the LEADING candidate to become a Peoples Foiler as of now. And Harken UK thinks the concept is a lot more than hype or BS:
Harken UK: Sponsors Sailing Dinghy Hydrofoil
Address:http://www.harken.co.uk/news/05m4.php

[RHough]

LMAO!!!

"All the Moths we have in Italy, 8 at the moment, were bought
because of the hydrofoils as the class before was virtually unknown."

Think about this ... EIGHT boats in the country and they are going to host the worlds ...

When was the last time a country that boasts an EIGHT boat fleet hosted the Laser worlds?

If the Moth Worlds doubles next year to 60 boats, then doubles again to 120 boats, that would be 90 new boats ...

If there were two guys building Moths before and now there are 4 ... in 24 months they each get to sell 1 boat a month ... at $15,000 ... sounds like the next Microsoft to me ... what was that stock ticker?

8 boats in Italy ... how did I manage to miss that in the news?

I wonder how many Opti's and Lasers there are in Italy? Hell, I'll wager that they get bigger fleets of Stars ... and we all know how modern that design is.

[frosh]

Hi Doug recognize any of the following?

Obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD) is a psychiatric disorder, more specifically, an anxiety disorder. OCD is manifested in a variety of forms, but is most commonly characterized by a subject's obsessive (repetitive, distressing, intrusive) thoughts and related compulsions (tasks or rituals).



To be diagnosed with Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder, one must have either obsessions or compulsions alone, or obsessions and compulsions,

Obsessions are defined by:

Recurrent and persistent thoughts, impulses, or images that are experienced, at some time during the disturbance, as intrusive and inappropriate and that cause marked anxiety or distress.

Compulsions are defined by:

Repetitive behaviors or mental acts that the person feels driven to perform in response to an obsession, or according to rules that must be applied rigidly.

Sorry, but there is something dramatically dis-functional about some-one who refuses to even give consideration to every reasonable argument backed up with more than adequate stats and evidence from my learned colleagues.

Even in the remote chance that what you claim will happen in the sailing world comes to pass, it does not justify your ridiculous attitude and refusal to enter into rational debate. No-one else in this forum has been so self absorbed and obstinate to not even give a small acknowledgement to some-one else (actually many, not one) point of view.

I don't mean to be cruel but you have been the sole cause of turning yourself into a "pariah". Even the few reputation points you have on this forum were given by mistake by another member who publically stated that he was trying to reduce your reputation, but pressed the wrong tabs.

You could just cool it with all the false hype and BS and become a regular guy here. After all we can tell that you are not un-intelligent, just unwilling to listen to anybody (except maybe a Moth guy).
You could contribute a lot of interesting material and thoughts here if you could get a handle on your OCD. My sympathies to you then!

[casavecchia]

Ten Moths in Italy at the moment, two years ago there were none and some more are coming.
When IMCA World asked if we were interested to host the 2007 Worlds I thought that was an occasion that Imca Italy could not afford to miss.
It was not a prize for our growth but because Torbole has a central location in Europe and is one of the best sailing places in the World.
When I spoke to the President of Circolo Vela Torbole, Mr. Emilio Munari. he said that they were willing to make the Moth Worlds the most important event of their 2007 race calendar.
If you have a look at their website you will see the level of the regattas they organize.
They are not in the game for the sake of dreaming.
Marco

[BWD]

To add to the above,
My homemade kiteboard: US $50, 20 knots, airborne without foils...
How's that math....
not so good for passengers, I'll conceed///

See todays issue of Scuttlebutt-Rohan Veal is coming to the US Boatshow with a production Bladerider.
http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com (issue 2176)

[Dan S]

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

See todays issue of Scuttlebutt-Rohan Veal is coming to the US Boatshow with a production Bladerider.
http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com (issue 2176)

So go ask for his autograph, and drool all over him you groupie.

[Figgy]

Originally Posted by Dan S

So go ask for his autograph, and drool all over him you groupie.

Nice contribution. You've got class.

[casavecchia]

Having met some truly extraordinary sailors, Paul Elvstrom for one, I see nothing wrong in having a strong admiration for people like John Ilett and Rohan Veal that are indeed changing the way we sail.
Always remember Dan:
They also serve who only stand and wait.

Marco.

[frosh]

Hi Marco, I would think that English is your second language, right?
The comment about Doug going to meet Rohan in person and ask for his autograph and drool, I hope is very different to the admiration that you showed for Paul Elvstrom when you met him. I am very familiar with the illustrious career of Paul, and regard him as the most remarkable and rounded sailor in the last 60 years.

This is a matter of the "quality" of the admiration.
There is admiration as exemplified by two scientists that each make a major breakthrough in science in the same field.
There is the admiration that a young boy has for his father.
Then there is the admiration that 14 year old girls had for their favourite "Beatle" in the mid 1960's.
I suggest that the feelings that Doug has for Rohan, fall pretty closely into the second and third categorys, but leaning more towards the third.

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

See todays issue of Scuttlebutt-Rohan Veal is coming to the US Boatshow with a production Bladerider.
http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com (issue 2176)

==============================================
More news: Rohan Veal is now working FULL TIME for KA Sail just underlining the huge financial committment they've made in investing in the Bladerider project.
Rohan and the new Bladerider foiler will be at the Annapolis Sailboat Show October 6-8 2006
UsBoat.com - Information
Address:http://www.usboat.com/index.php?opti...d=18&Itemid=45 Changed:8:43 AM on Saturday, September 9, 2006
======================
bladerider_sept2006.jpg
Address:http://www.rohanveal.com/photos/bladerider_sept2006.jpg Changed:8:54 PM on Sunday, September 10, 2006