Moth on Foils: 31.1 knots (35.8 mph)

[RHough]

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

Here is where you can find the actual facts as to the conditions and results; see others including post #125:
2006 Squaddy Brass Monkey Regatta - Sailing Anarchy Forums
Address:http://www.sailinganarchy.com/forums...838487&st=100&
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Race one-less than 2 knot drifter
Race two-less than 2 knot drifter
Race Three- 5-8knots
Race Four- 5-8 knots
This information from one of the organizers of the event-hardly 10 knots as claimed in a previous post.

LMAO!

The statements was:

Originally Posted by Baronvonrort

Winds below 10 knots on both days and the moth performed no where near dougs (dogs?) performance claims.

No one claimed 10 knots!?!? Are we just a wee bit paranoid?

[RHough]

Originally Posted by wet feet

My conclusion is that although these boats are comparitively few in number they have done more to attract attention than almost any other small boats ever. Even non-sailors gasp in amazement when shown photographs of them in action.

Is that kind of like clowns on uni-cycles attracting attention to a circus?

[frosh]

Well here we go again! There can be no argument that Moth numbers have dropped dramatically over the last 20 years. Numbers in club fleets and numbers at National and World titles are the plain evidence which cannot be manipulated (not even by someone as talented at this as Doug).

QUOTE from CT249:
That's NOT saying the Moth foiler isn't great, it's fantastic, it IS saying that looking at complicated fast craft as the way forward and putting the spotlight on them may not actually be helping the sport significantly.

It has been said before in various ways, but the rush to win races leading to narrow hulls and later hydrofoils has irreparably damaged the Moth Class as an almost iconic widely accessible single hander (in Australia at least).

As far as the success of the Hobie 16, apart from the story as presented by C. Ostlind this class spawned a whole culture of surfcats and a huge industry with dozens of manufacturers building a variant of a surf cat.

Background:
With its legendary design and induction into the Sailing Hall of Fame, the Hobie 16 is truly in a class of its own. Thirty years of racing and going stronger than ever.

Powerful enough to challenge veteran sailors yet easy enough for beginners, the Hobie 16 is the perfect all-around cat. Asymmetrical hulls eliminate the need for dagger boards. This makes for easy launching and beaching.

The Hobie 16... the ultimate one design class.


Having said that I do not foresee the demise of the Moth Class anytime soon, but it highly elitist and not as it used to be when Dad would build one for his son in the garage for a few hundred dollars, and it would be competitive, and able to be sailed by two lightweights for fun as well.

Check out Rohans comments on boatdesign.net and this thread. Also talks about his view of the Moth Foiler:
Rohan Veal - Home Page
Address:http://www.rohanveal.com/home.html Changed:2:05 AM on Thursday, August 17, 2006
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The Moth Foiler is one hell of a great boat in and of itself but I think the fact that it has shown that a two foil monohull system is practical will wind up- over time- being it's greatest legacy.
It IS definitely possible to improve on ease of sailing, early take off, variable sized foils,retractable foils and many aspects of monofoiling that are not addressable under the Moth rules.

[Paul B]

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

Check out Rohans comments on boatdesign.net and this thread.

This IS Boatdesign.net

[frosh]

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

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It IS definitely possible to improve on ease of sailing, early take off, variable sized foils,retractable foils and many aspects of monofoiling that are not addressable under the Moth rules.

Doug which Moth rule specifically disallows the design in a monofoil format to be made easy to sail. I take this to mean in relation to the experienced dinghy sailor, who sails high performance boats but of more usual dimensions; say length to beam ratio of 3.

Is it the length restriction, 11 feet?
Is it the maximum sail area, 8 sq. m?
Is it the banning of multihulls?
Is it the banning of lead keels?
I'm not sure about this last one. Would one of you forum members with more knowledge of the current International Moth rules clear this one up?

Sam, the rule against buoyancy pods; see the UK forum "Is this a trimaran?" where several experienced Mothies comment on how buoyancy pods would definitely help the beginner. I know this from my own experience on sailing one of my experimental tri's whose "ama's" were nothing more than buoyancy pods with about one cu. ft. of buoyancy four feet from the cl and whose main hull beam to length ratio was about 12/1-a bit narrower than a Moth. Without those pods I couldn't have sailed the boat-and probably wouldn't have tried.
Pods could still be used in the Moth class to get beginners foiling sooner if for no other reason than to hold their interest-and they could be removable and variable in size. New boats such as the M4 and aeroSKIFF14 have pods designed as part of the boat.
In my opinion, this is one of the most important ingredients in a Peoples Foiler: ease of sailing when not on foils-it's already easier to sail a Moth on foils than it is to sail as a lowrider from a stability perspective.
Pods work....
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Moth Buoyancy Pods
Address:http://moth.iointegration.com/IsthisamothSP.htm Changed:9:18 AM on Friday, January 24, 2003
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aeroSKIFF 14 Design
--Address:http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/att...7&d=1141571544
attachment.php?attachmentid=5298&d=1141571544
--Address:http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/att...8&d=1141571544
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M4 Prototype
Address:http://www.sailm4.co.uk/ Changed:4:42 PM on Thursday, August 17, 2006

[Paul B]

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

New boats such as the M4 and aeroSKIFF14...

There is no such thing as an aeroSkiff 14.

[foilr]

From http://www.moth-sailing.org/rules_interpretations.html

A. Wing Buoyancy - There is no limitation to the amount, type or shape of buoyancy contained in the wings, trampolines or wing tubes of an International Moth (other than that defined in rule 6.3.i), however the boat must NOT be sailed with the wing bar floatation on the waters surface for more than is required to stabilise the boat back to a vertical position, otherwise this is in breach of rule 6.3.i.

Full rules are here.

There is no rule against bouyancy pods. Please understand that the Moth rules are open class rules. Unless something is explicitly outlawed, it is legal.

You are free to put bouyancy pods on a Moth. No Moth sailors like to make alterations to their boats to make them go slower, hence nobody sails with bouyancy pods.

Scott, the point of buoyancy pods was not to make any of the boats mentioned above faster or slower: it was to make them easier to sail! And time and again in almost all the literature on the subject the extreme difficulty of sailing a Moth in seahugger mode is repeated ad infinitum. Removable buoyancy pods seem to me like one hell of a good idea to get people into foiling a lot sooner than they would if they had to master the seahugger mode first without them.
Have you ever sailed with buoyancy pods on a Moth or a boat with a similar main hull beam/length ratio?
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The UK site as referenced in my previous post has much more on this:
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As to the rules, according to the UK site:Rule 6.3i states: "Catamaran or multihull configurations are prohibited. Sailing any type of permitted hull design consistently as a catamaran or multihull is also prohibited."
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Comments(excerpted):
--editor: "Moths with mini hulls at the tips will be much easier to sail and greatly reduce the skill differential between those who can balance their narrow hulls and those who can't."
--David Balkwill- "pods give advantage.."
--Andy Paterson"... so it helps the less skilled and so is beneficial for the class as whole." So perhaps'trainer' wings/floats allowed....but a limit on buoyancy or size for the experienced helms. Calling them trainer or 'Fairy- wings' might also discourage their use! I think there has been not much development of floaty things because it doesn't benefit the front of the fleet-and it is of benefit in a very limited range of conditions-mostly v light winds and sloppy waves."
--Doug Pybus-UK presidents view: "I personally believe that Freddy's boat is illegal...I think Freddy has stepped outside the rules. The key line in the rules is:"catamaran or multihull configurations are prohibited." FREDDY'S BOAT HAS THREE HULLS AND IS THEREFORE=A TRIMARAN=A MULTIHULL."
-- Nigel Oswald,ex UK Champions view: "I totaly agree with you that this may not be what the class wants and tht if someone took the next step and produced hull shaped wings then you would have grounds to protest."
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So almost EVERYONE thinks it would help beginers and they are not alone. Those of us that have actually used them KNOW they would! Now,the previous discussion took place several years ago and despite diligent searching I can find no other reference to this discussion in Moth literature; maybe Foilr knows what was finally decided and where to find more info?
Despite the legality or not of buoyancy pods it seems that they could be a major aid to introduce people to foiling on any foiler designed similarly to the Moth, aeroSKIFF14, or M4.

[foilr]

Have you ever sailed with buoyancy pods on a Moth or a boat with a similar main hull beam/length ratio?

No.

what was finally decided

Nothing. The issue went away because the people at the front of the fleet don't care. Development in Moths is driven by people trying to go faster, hence a development that doesn't make the good sailors faster is largely irrelevant to the measurers (and I am one of those).

the point of buoyancy pods was not to make any of the boats mentioned above faster or slower: it was to make them easier to sail

And no beginning Moth sailors use them (for a variety of reasons), despite having the ability to do so.

Well, Freddie(experienced ,right?) used them and the designer of the M4 uses them.I think I've seen at least two other Moths with them as well... I would think that whether they were legal or not if they helped beginners-which they do- it might pay to encourage their use-at least initially. By "pay" I mean encourage people who feel that sailing a seahugger Moth for a "season or two"(as many "experts" have recommended instead of recomending pods) before foiling is too long to wait and too high a "price" to pay.
Whatever the Moth does the Peoples Foiler developers will pay real close attention to ease of sailing when off the foils to make the transition to foiling as easy, straightforward and fast as possible.
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Vote on UK site: 14 say that the pod on the Moth in the following picture makes the boat a trimaran; 7 say it's a Moth though one of those considers that it should be banned.
Pod on Moth:
Address:http://moth.iointegration.com/Duvoisin1SP.htm Changed:9:18 AM on Friday, January 24, 2003
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Question for foilr(Scott): In light of the fact that nearly every Mothie interviewed believes that pods make the boat much easier to sail in seahugger mode why wouldn't the class embrace pods for beginners to try to help build the class? And to let interested people have a go at foiling w/o the current trial by capsize first?
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FLASH! First Pix of NEW BLADERIDER MOTH (that I've found)- From Scott Babbage's site:
scott // projectsomewhere // photo // Bladerider
Address:http://scott.projectsomewhere.com/ga...3079,7758.html Changed:2:37 AM on Thursday, August 17, 2006
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Eye Candy-great Foiler Moth pix:
mark_robinson.jpg
Address:http://www.kasail.com/sailing/photos...k_robinson.jpg Changed:11:38 PM on Wednesday, May 31, 2006

[frosh]

[quote=Doug Lord]Well, Freddie(experienced ,right?) used them and the designer of the M4 uses them.I think I've seen at least two other Moths with them as well... I would think that whether they were legal or not if they helped beginners-which they do- it might pay to encourage their use-at least initially. By "pay" I mean encourage people who feel that sailing a seahugger Moth for a "season or two"(as many "experts" have recommended instead of recomending pods) before foiling is too long to wait and too high a "price" to pay.
Whatever the Moth does the Peoples Foiler developers will pay real close attention to ease of sailing when off the foils to make the transition to foiling as easy, straightforward and fast as possible.
=====================
Vote on UK site: 14 say that the pod on the Moth in the following picture makes the boat a trimaran; 7 say it's a Moth though one of those considers that it should be banned.
Pod on Moth:
Address:http://moth.iointegration.com/Duvoisin1SP.htm Changed:9:18 AM on Friday, January 24, 2003
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Question for foilr(Scott): In light of the fact that nearly every Mothie interviewed believes that pods make the boat much easier to sail in seahugger mode why wouldn't the class embrace pods for beginners to try to help build the class? And to let interested people have a go at foiling w/o the current trial by capsize first?

Scott (yes he has foiled) has unequivocally said that buoyancy pods are not used even by Moth beginners for various reasons especially that they slow the boat. Do we then assume that these "other reasons" must be embarassment if in fact the use of significant size (say like the M4) pods would hasten the learning curve so that beginners would not have to go through "trial by capsize".
Post this hypothesis on the Moth forum under technique just to get feed back from real Mothies.
You then state that pods would likely build the class numbers. I have a better idea.
Offer a free Moth foiler with pods to all aspiring young sailors wishing to join the class but cannot afford to. If they are still actively using the boat in 12 months time ( i.e. attending a predertimined number of racing events), then they must buy the Moth and enter into an arrangement to pay off the cost of the boat, interest free, over three years. If not racing regularly, they return the boat without cost to the sponsor, no questions asked.
Doug if you can find such a sponsor, we have a sporting chance to build class numbers.
As a postscript, didn't I detect a shift in your commercial program recently to develop the "Peoples Foiler", changing ever so slightly into developing a high performance sit in keel boat for the disabled?

SKUD 18 : Lead Assisted Skiff

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This is a "skiff" targeting ablebodied and disabled sailors designed by Julian Bethwaite. Since I am working on a similar project for me personally I'm curious if anyone has seen or sailed this boat

[Chris Ostlind]

I suppose someone has already asked this question, though right now, I'm too lazy to go look it up... but just how far aft are we going to see the rudder support, truss structure elongate until the boat is no longer being hoopla'd as an "incredible 11 footer"?

Is a five foot structure OK? How about twentry feet with but a teensy little tub that is being called the hull? How about no hull at all with launches and retrievals off a dock or heavily cushioned crash pad?

I see out in the future a World Championship where a bunch of young studs go madly dashing across the beach to their rigged and ready, space framed foilers. The drivers jump on and the "boat" is catapulted to foiling speeds by an unseen hydraulic device. The machines sail off at speed with their weed-free foils on the verge of humming and return at the end of the heat. No floating anything, the drivers barely get wet and the conclusion is virtually silent, save the high-fiving support crews.

Yeah, sure, I'm going to extremes with this, and it could make for a funny skit (though I'm not sure anyone outside of a small element of the boating world would "get it") So what, exactly, do the rules say and how often have they been adjusted to allow even greater departures from the original Moth design (if it had a transom hung rudder originally) Somebody help me with this picture.

I'm not a Moth sailor and will likely never be one, but I'm interested in the technical adaptations of all boats to see what ideas can be swiped and adapted to other conceptual approaches in boating.

[CT 249]

Rudder gantries have been around since about '76. They were on UK skiffs initially (in Moths).