Moth on Foils: 30.31 knots (34.86 mph)

Velocitek is sponsoring a speed challenge at the Moth worlds. Be interesting to see if anyone can beat Rohan Veals record that is the subject of this thread!
http://www.thedailysail.com/ISM/arti...t&Page=1&Login

In a fairly historic result Scott Babbage won one race against the A Class cats on Saturday and two on Sunday at the Squaddy Brass Monkey regatta in Sydney. Just one more illustration of how fast the foiler Moth really is in good hands. Imagine an 11' monohull beating an 18' catamaran with almost twice the SA and over three times the RM!
http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/ind...&#entry1858889 posts 75 and 76

[wind_apparent]

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

In a fairly historic result Scott Babbage won one race against the A Class cats on Saturday and two on Sunday at the Squaddy Brass Monkey regatta in Sydney. Just one more illustration of how fast the foiler Moth really is in good hands. Imagine an 11' monohull beating an 18' catamaran with almost twice the SA and over three times the RM!
http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/ind...&#entry1858889 posts 75 and 76

What a drag (yes, pun intended )

( get it the reason it can beat an A-cat is because of the drag )

[foilr]

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

In a fairly historic result Scott Babbage won one race against the A Class cats on Saturday and two on Sunday at the Squaddy Brass Monkey regatta in Sydney. Just one more illustration of how fast the foiler Moth really is in good hands. Imagine an 11' monohull beating an 18' catamaran with almost twice the SA and over three times the RM!
http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/ind...&#entry1858889 posts 75 and 76

I think you've overestimated the importance of the Brass Monkey regatta Doug. No offence to the organisers, but it's a poorly attended tinpot event held in Winter, usually in ordinary conditions, in one of the flukiest parts of the Harbour. The results have little bearing on reality. Rohan and the rest of the Moths have been destroyed in the results for 3 of the last 4 years.

I'm very familiar with past Squaddy results-thats what makes what you did so impressive.

[SimonN]

As usual, Doug, you look at raw data without understanding what the hell is going on. Scott has spelt it out for you. In previous years, either conditions have been such as to make a foiler a liability or there haven't been any top foilers there.

Sure, well done to Scott, but at least he is realistic about what he has achieved. I wonder if the real story would have been if he had failed to achieve this result, given the conditions.

[foilman24]

Originally Posted by SimonN

. I wonder if the real story would have been if he had failed to achieve this result, given the conditions.

Ohhhhhh, poor Dougie got burned up again, I bet if he spent more time in the shop (read: Any) he wouldn't have to live vicariously through all the real foiling sailors that obviously don't like him very much.

Originally Posted by SimonN

As usual, Doug, you look at raw data without understanding what the hell is going on. .

-------------------------
Oh ,I understand allright: an 11' monohull beat a number of "good" A Class catamarans around a course in challenging conditions in three out of four races.
Just like Rohan Veal did in another regatta in 5 out 6 races several years ago.
Must be a trend.
And it is just one more exclamation point in the continuing story of bi-foiling
technology......

New top of the line boat designed by the Bladerider designer is about to be available from Simon Payne who has started another company!
They'll be a LOT more to this story soon-See Simon Paynes Blog.
http://scott.projectsomewhere.com/
http://rohanveal.com
http://sipayne.blogspot.com/
----------------
From Paynes blog:

[Chris Ostlind]

Perhaps letting the superfluous fizz out of this Moth vs A-Cat thing will lend a sense of relevance to the whole issue.

I think Scott has it nailed, as does Sam. Perhaps that should be a signal to others, as well? In the end, it doesn't mean squat, whichever way things wind up.

If it were that big a deal, then let's match-up any Moth with any driver and put them on the open water of Quiberon Bay in 25 knots with Sodeb'O over a ten mile, straight line course.

Yeah, it's that relevant.

Chris
www.lunadadesign.com

[Paul B]

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

New top of the line boat about to be available from the designer of the Bladerider who has started another company!
They'll be a LOT more to this story soon-See Simon Paynes Blog!
http://scott.projectsomewhere.com/
http://rohanveal.com
http://sipayne.blogspot.com/blog
----------------
From Paynes blog:

More talk about yet another foiler being built, without any word of when the new AeroStiff will be completed.

Look, pictures of someone else's work, again.

How long will it take for ******* to start telling these guys how to build their boat?

Pherf..pherf..Jumping..pherf..Mid wand..pherf..no gantry..pherf..no shrouds..pherf..manual control..pherf..calculations, calculations..pherf..pherf...

The midship planing wand was invented by Dr. Sam Bradfield and used on numerous multifoilers including the Rave and SKAT.
And now it turns out that at least the midship part has been adopted experimentally by Jean Pierre Ziegart who sailed to a 14th out of 36 boats in the Velocitec
Speed Challenge and to 31st out of about 95 boats at the UK Moth Worlds. He also used dual wands first pioneered by Thomas Jundt on the 26' bi-foiler Mirabaud. A midship wand also is used on the Foiling 18 "Access". Very interesting-

[Chris Ostlind]

Aren't you lumping several different kinds of boats in the same bag of tricks here, Doug?

As to the Rave; just where do you think someone would put the "wand" when there are foils way out in each ama and those amas just happen to be very closely located to midships of the craft? This does not strike me as significant in any way when trying to prove a point. It's more about the serendipity of the design, rather than the best placement for the wand.

I notice that you do not speak to the fact that the Hobie Trifoiler does not use this wand setup whatsoever and it produced much faster speeds than did the Rave with its magical "midship" setup.

What sort of wand system is used by all the production Moth boats that are the only substantive foiling option available at present? Do they use a midship wand? They do use a bow mounted wand, the Trifoiler used a pair of bow wands and the Rave's wand position is more a matter of ama/foil location on the boat, rather than on the whole craft, don't the overwhelming numbers of these examples as production craft, indicate the relative enormous success of bow mounted wands for foilers?

Why the sudden desire to promote midship wands, which are clearly not the preferred wand location for boats that have any success in a commercial fashion?

Is it because they have been proven better, or is it because you have anointed them as the thing to do? If it's about your preferences, how is it that you can justify the placement in the face of hundreds of working boats already in the marketplace, while all these references above are simply prototype study platforms with absolutely no commercial value at all?

Just curious, perhaps you can illuminate the reasons...?

Chris
www.lunadadesign.com

First, a Hobie trifoiler uses "feelers" not wands. They are small planing bodies connected almost directly to the pivoting main foil -and they stick way out in front of the boat. The Rave Wands are directly connected to the top of the board and are retracted with the board-something the Hobie can't do. One of the advantages of the midship wand on the Moth or any other boat is simplicity. It is likely the double wand installation on Ziegarts boat doesn't weigh much more than a single bow wand. It also allows a tighter mechanical installation.
You can't beat it for use on foilers with retractable foils-something that is being seen more and more. And it may have other advantages as well.
The double wand keeps the wand wake away from the vertical fins-which is a good thing.

[Chris Ostlind]

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

First, a Hobie trifoiler uses "feelers" not wands. They are small planing bodies connected almost directly to the pivoting main foil -and they stick way out in front of the boat.

And the blonde baby hair is split thinner and thinner until there is no substance left at all.

Get real Doug, what's the purpose of the "feeler" as you describe it? Does it not do the very same job as does the "wand"? If it is functionally doing the same thing, just using a different aproach, then it is the same thing as far as the foils and the boat are concerned.

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

The Rave Wands are directly connected to the top of the board and are retracted with the board-something the Hobie can't do.

It doesn't appear to need to do what the Rave does.

You still have to show how the two mechanisms do anything substantially different as far as foil pitch and response control are involved.

So, which of these two boats, the Rave and the Trifoiler, demonstrated the highest, verifiable speeds while foiling? This is, after all a thread in which a certain amount of crowing has been done about foiling speed, isn't it? So, let us know the answer to that question and then, simply acknowledge that the Trifoiler's "feeling wand" mechanism has apparently allowed the craft to achieve much better performance and it all comes off the bow of the ama hulls... imagine that?

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

One of the advantages of the midship wand on the Moth or any other boat is simplicity. It is likely the double wand installation on Ziegarts boat doesn't weigh much more than a single bow wand. It also allows a tighter mechanical installation.

You can prove this weight comparison, rather than speculate, can you... the double wand lightness thing? Tighter mechanical installation? Are you saying that this is a good thing, or does the mechansim in current use actually benefit from not being so digitally reactionary, giving the boat a bit of a forgiving feel to its high strung nature?

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

You can't beat it for use on foilers with retractable foils-something that is being seen more and more. And it may have other advantages as well.
The double wand keeps the wand wake away from the vertical fins-which is a good thing.

Wand wake as a disturbing function to the foil surfaces? Is this actually coming out of the mouth of a guy who has, for a couple of years now, loudly proclaimed that any foreign stuff in the water is not a problem for a foiler? And now, here you are suggesting that the simple presence of wand wake is a significant disruption to foil flow and lift? Can you see my grin from there as you search, frantically, for something, anything that might be postable in your defense?

This rest of this is pure speculation on your part, Doug, not fact. If what you say is true, you'd think that Prowler, Bladerider, the new MachII and all the rest of the Moth foiling community would have long ago adopted this approach on their own boats... yet, strangely, they have not. Strikes one as fairly significant, that.

The only production foiling boats out there and they do not choose to adopt the suggestions of Doug Lord. When will they ever learn?