Moth on Foils: 30.31 knots (34.86 mph)

P-thats just plain horsemanure! How you and Ostlind could draw such a conclusion is beyond me-just because I asked if the record would be ratified?? What absolute NONSENSE!!!!!

[Pericles]

Doug,

There you go again! Old reliable! How we feel about you is a direct consequence of your own attitude. We simply reflect back to you, the prickly image which you present to the rest of the world. Had you been less offensive in the past you would not now be in the defensive situation you find yourself.

Action and reaction. Also, it's not kite guy, his name is Tilmann Heinig. A man who achieves!

Pericles

[Chris Ostlind]

Doug,

I think it would be more than fair to suggest that you've been less than open minded about kite boarding as a boating activity. I guess it was something like a year and a half ago that we were talking about Foilers and their attempts to be recognized by the Oly committee as a sailing class. Your assumption was that any new class should be a Mothie.

I suggested that it would be much better if any new class would be a kite boarding collection of several events, much like one sees in the Snowboarding events of the Winter Games (Halfpipe, Boarder Cross, etc.) No way that a Moth could do anywhere near the stuff that a kiteboarder can do.

Kite driven craft are much more versatile, they are faster and they can rip in shallower water, which puts them in the lap of not only spectators, but also provides extraordinary camera angles for TV considerations. In short, a waay more interesting and exciting, water-based sport than a Moth Foiler could ever hope to be.

Your attitude back then was, shall we say, less than thrilled with the idea of having your pet boat form being supplanted by kite.

It would look from your, pretty much, condescending comments about Tilmann's, bold as hell, freak-on at over 50 knots, that you still hold kites in disdain. This is the posture to which Pericles refers in his posts.

That's a shame. One would have hoped that by now you would have come around to the business of being skunked by a sport that costs far less to enter than a Moth foiler and can kick their butts on the water. VolksKiten Uber Alles... Ausgezeichnet!

[petereng]

Can kites travel around a triangular course? I don't think they can? I've only seen them going in and out from shore at chosen beachs. I don't think they can sail around a conventional sailing course so the Moth or any other boat would beat them?

[Pericles]

petereng,

Have you read this thread from page one?

Pericles

[petereng]

Hi Pericles,
I flicked through, I've just read the forst two years and have decided to butt out of this conversation.
P

[Pericles]

Wise choice. There are so many other really rewarding threads to post about on this site. I'd like to know more about "banging" out an ally hull.

Regards.

Pericles

[petereng]

Explosive forming is used for many products. But composites have overtaken most of the structural applications that its used for.

Metals are strain rate sensitive. If you stretch them really slowly they stretch more then they do under normal metal working conditions. This is called super plastic forming (SPF) special alloys of steel, aluminium and titanium have been developed for this. Stretchy aluminiums with 500% stretch are available. These are usually done with heat and vacuum.

If you stretch them really fast they stretch more then usual as well. Typically nose cones for missiles, bathyspheres even teapots have been done like this. Very big and thick structures and tiny structures are possible. Need substantial moulds, typically concrete or steel to withstand the large hydraulic pressures.

These days you can do aerospace grade composites in your garage (using vartm or infusion) so no need to go to these types of process in metals. Plus you can make any shape you want, so metal is sort of a defunct material. The only reason motorsport/aerospace now use metal is in high temp areas and this is changing as higher & Higher temp resins are developed.

Technically there is no reason for metal to be on a boat.

Peter

[Pericles]

Peter,

"Technically there is no reason for metal to be on a boat."

Music to my ears, but just wait for the fall out from the metal boat guys!

Sorry to be a dunce, but what do you mean by "vartm"?. You could start a fresh thread, if necessary.

In addition, notwithstanding your point about metal boats, what do you think of the idea of encapsulating aluminum sheets rather than BS1088 marine ply as the basis for a Stitch & Glue hull?

It might be an unusual composite, but could it stiffen and waterproof the underwater hull shape for a catamaran? The remainder of construction could continue with other types of composites elsewhere in the catamaran, either marine foams or BS1088.

Regards,

Pericles

[petereng]

VARTM is vacuum assisted resin transfer moulding (infusion but using rigid moulds). There is no problem stitch and gluing aluminium. But as Al is much much stiffer then plywood you are restricted in the shapes that you can make. If you have the metal working facilities no problem, if your working in typical home garage you have problems. If you consider Al as cheap carbon its perfect for encapsulating with glass fibres as stiffeners. A typical high quality glass layup Unidirectional is 30GPa stiffness, Al is 70GPa stiffness whereas a good carbon layup is about 80GPa.

Peter

[masalai]

petereng, What you are saying sounds very interesting, Please start a new thread on "My preferred materials in construction of various parts of boats" or something.

You seem to have a depth of knowledge that would be appreciated by the many users of this net.

Thanks... -mas-

[Chris Ostlind]

Originally Posted by petereng

Can kites travel around a triangular course? I don't think they can? I've only seen them going in and out from shore at chosen beachs. I don't think they can sail around a conventional sailing course so the Moth or any other boat would beat them?

I see you guys have gotten on to another table at the buffet, but suffice to say... yes, kites can go upwind. Not nearly as fast as they do on other points of sail, but upwind, nevertheless.

So, since you posed a question that places the Moth at an advantage, let's offer one up that takes your triangle course and works it to the advantage of the Kite crowd.

Let's put the windward mark in 1" of water at the edge of the beach. this will be followed by a run out through five foot breaking surf to the next mark. Clearly, a foilers dream come true.

[Pericles]

Masalai,

Petereng is certainly bringing valuable knowledge. See his #36 at http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sho...991#post182991 and his other posts. Building boats may just take off in another direction.

Pericles

[Pericles]

Chris,

I hope Peter will want to post about composites and adhesives rather than moths.

Regards,

Pericles

[masalai]

Hi all, I meant in one place so I can find it on an irregular basis, read, learn and not necessarily interfere.. Thanks