Moth on Foils: 30.31 knots (34.86 mph)

In most cases when Rohan raced another fleet including the 49ers, A Class cats and RSX boards I know for sure he was racing top guys in those boats. As far as the cats vs Aussie 18's I've found a few comments giving the impression that most cat sailors-at least in Australia- consider cats faster than Aussie 18's. And I have a quote- currently hiding from me- that directly refers to the foiler Moth vs 18' skiff.

Originally Posted by CT 249

When has Rohan beating "every major cat fleet including F18s"????

In the reference you gave earlier (Sauna Sail) he said "only a few top guys on a Tornado and Hobie Tiger stayed ahead". However, there were other F18s (and an F16) that were finishing MINUTES ahead of the best Tigers in that regatta in the races Rohan did.

There is just no logic in the claim that because Rohan thinks he was catching everyone but a few guys on a T and a Tiger, he was also catching the other F18s that were minutes in front of the Tigers and the Tornado. How can you keep up this pretence?
Rohan says he caught the Tigers, but the Tigers were well behind the other F18s, therefore catching Tigers does not mean he beat the F18s. It's really not very difficult.
It would be much more interesting if you spent your energy trying to obtain some facts rather than finding references that give no times.

=====================
This is what Rohan said:
Monday ,June 12,2006
"Each race of our division started 5 (FIVE) minutes behind the F18's, but by the end of my three laps,I had nearly caught and passed most of them. The highlight was passing them one at a time(to windward and to leeward) on a reach with their kites up! Only a few of the top guys on a Tornado and Hobie Tigers stayed ahead, but they weren't anymore than 2-3 minutes in front."
And thats after starting FIVE minutes behind.
-------------
Add to that the fact that Rohan beat a fleet of A Class cats(also 18') in 5 out of 6 races in 2004 or 2005 and the picture gets clearer. These are not just random results they are a clear pattern. This A Class regatta and the story behind it was once on the Aussie A class site(some posts are still there) as were many comments by A Class sailors regarding being passed by a foiler Moth.

[CT 249]

Yes, after starting five minutes behind, Rohan estimated* that "a few top guys on a Tornado and Hobie Tigers" were 2-3 minutes in front.

However, the race results show that in the races the foiler finished, there were other F18s (Capricorns) that were well ahead (about two minutes) of the first two Hobie Tigers, and about 5 minutes ahead of the third of the 8 Tigers. In two of the races the second Tiger (remember, we're talking about "a few guys" on TigerS, ie more than one Tiger, in front of the foiler) was over 3 and almost 5 minutes behind the first F18 Capricorn.

So catching up 2-3 minutes on even the fastest Tigers means that the foiler was SLOWER than the first F18. And that's according to Rohan's own estimate.

To claim that catching 2-3minutes up on the Tigers meant beating all the F18s, when there were other F18s minutes ahead of the Tigers, is not in any way logical.

Is the foiler remarkable? Hell yeah. Did beat all the F18s? It looks like it didn't.


* and we have no means of knowing how accurate that estimate is. Did he use a stopwatch? Maybe. Is he a great judge of time when foiling and when trying to assess boats several minutes ahead? Maybe. Did he see all the F18s? Apparently not, since he seems to have missed the Capricorns and a Taipan F16 that were in front of the Tigers.

No disrespect to anyone, but a rough guess of being 2-3 minutes quicker than boat type A is not hard proof that you are faster than boat type B, which was finishing well ahead of type A.

If an F18 sailor said he caught the Prowlers by 2-3 minutes, and there were BRs 3-5 minutes ahead of the Prowlers, would you say that proves that an F18 can beat a foiling Moth?

Let's also not forget - the foilers only did half the races. Surely craft like foilers and shortboards, which are amazing in the right conditions but pretty slow to very slow in the wrong conditions, should be seen in a different light to craft that are good all-round.

I made the comment earlier that Rohan Veal sailing a Moth foiler is the fastest sailboat under 20'. I believe that's the case for the folowing reasons:
1) Veal has beaten a fleet of top A Class sailors in 5 of 6 races around a course(approx. 2004-5)
2) Veal has beaten a fleet of F18 catamarans as noted previously(2006).
3) Veal has beaten a fleet of 49ers sailed by top people.(approx. 2005-6)
4) Veal has beaten numerous other dinghies and catamarans(420's, I14's, Hobie 16's ect.) 2003-2007)
5) Veal has recently beaten a fleet of the top RSX windsurfers.
-----
6) Now I was told of a Aussie 18 encounter with a foiler Moth that I cannot find but it occured to me that there have been numerous encounters between F18 catamarans and Aussie 18's which can be found all over the internet. Here's one such contest:
By "Tornado Alive" under "Grudge Match" on SA.

"Day one the 18 did overlay the gate a few times, which is why we near on lapped him....... However overlaying is overlaying even on a cat. We did not bang the corners like the 18 but picked the shifts and pressure on the down winds (who said cats aren't tactical). We did underlay a few times and had a few minor overlays as well.

Race 3 was a shocker on our part but we came back hard with superior boat speed and tactics in the 18s most favoured conditions....... They were just pulling 3 strings with the #1 rig whilst we were struggling to get even 1 on the wire.

Race 4 was my favourite and really emphasised the speed difference. We started under the 18 and sailed straight out from underneath them with better hight and speed. (We were now just pulling 1 to 2 strings). The 18 followed the same lines as us and we continued to steadily pull out ground on him both upwind and down.

Throughout the 2 days, whilst they also made a few errors, when ever we were side by side the F18 showed superior boat speed. Across the wind range the F18 pulled BIG ground on the upwinds. Downwind the F18 still pulled ground however in race 3 when the wind was very light (about 5 to 7 knots) the 18 Skiff had simular speed but a slight edge in VMG.

Race 1 – F18 by 4 min 43 sec in a 25 min 39 sec race
Race 2 – F18 by 7 min 44 sec in a 32 min 41 sec race
Race 3 – 18 Skiff by 52 sec in a 42 min 51 sec race
Race 4 – F18 by 2 min 18 sec in a 25 min 13 sec race

Sounds a little more comprehensive when you convert to minutes."

++++++++++++++++++++++
Since we know that Rohan has beaten F18 catamarans around 3 laps of a course and the F18's usually beat the Aussie 18 Skiffs I think it's obvious that the Moth foiler sailed by Rohan Veal is faster than an Aussie 18 in conditions suiting both boats .
Further , I think these facts are just the begining since Rohan Veal probably has more time on a foiler Moth than anyone else on earth. But the Bladerider and Prowler successes have generated tremendous excitement resulting in many new foilers getting on the water. I believe that sooner or later these accomplishments by Rohan will be commonplace by mid-fleet and top Moth foiler sailors everywhere. And the boat will earn it's title as the Fastest Sailboat Under 20'. At least if the RS600FF and Foiling 18 guys don't get there first....
----------
NOTE: this anecdotal evidence does NOT include speedsailing boards or Kites! Round a course only.

[CT 249]

Doug, this is bizarre. You totally fail to address the point that the foiler did NOT, repeat NOT, beat a fleet of F18s. It was never claimed that it did, by anyone but you.

The foiler is said to have caught up to TIGERS. The TigerS (plural) were MINUTES behind the leading F18s and in one case, an F16.

Just so people can judge the credibility of this claim you have made so often, they could go to

http://www.topyachtsoftware.com/resu...ail/series.htm

and see the results of races 3,4 and 5. The foilers didn't start or didn't finish the other races.

Sure, the foiler may have beaten some F18s. The world champ in many classes will beat many average sailors in faster boats. The first Tigers were only third and fourth fastest F18s. Catching time on the boats in 3rd and 4th does not mean you were catching the boats well ahead of them.

If you think it's okay to judge a class by the speed of the third fastest boat, we'll look the other foilers.....oh, hang on, only one foiler finished a single race.

I know this point has been made to you about three times now. I'm just amusing myself watch you just ignore this fact.

What you believe should be seen in light of the fact that you've probably never seen or sailed an 18 or foiler Moth, and it is proven that you cannot properly judge the claims of their performance.

The funny thing is that the foiler performed brilliantly against two world-class sailors in skiff types. The foiler gave them a complete kicking in three races and didn't sail the others.

There's enough good news for the foiler there, god knows why anyone would try to make up some cock and bull story about the foiler beating the F18s when the top F18s were clearly well ahead of the boats Rohan referred to.

By the way, your evidence that the F18s are much quicker than 18 Foot Skiffs comes from the same regatta that showed a foiler getting beaten by 12 Foot Skiffs. A couple of years ago, at this same regatta, the world's #1 and #2 foiler sailors were comprehensively beaten. The race organiser himself has said in this very thread that this year's event was not a good test of speed.

I know you rarely answer direct questions, but please answer this one - do you believe that performances from the Brass Monkey are a good measure of boatspeed?

CT, you keep trying to distort the facts contained in Rohans comments. Well, it won't work-they are quite clear. You've been a long term anti-foiler- I remember your comments from the early days on the Moth forum where you repeatedly distorted facts. Give it up.
This is what Rohan said:
Monday ,June 12,2006
"Each race of our division started 5 (FIVE) minutes behind the F18's, but by the end of my three laps,I had nearly caught and passed most of them. The highlight was passing them one at a time(to windward and to leeward) on a reach with their kites up! Only a few of the top guys on a Tornado and Hobie Tigers stayed ahead, but they weren't anymore than 2-3 minutes in front."
And thats after starting FIVE minutes behind.
-------------
As to the Tornado Alive quote- I have no idea what race he was referring to but there are numerous quotes all over the internet about the speed of the F18 catamaran vs the Aussie 18 skiff including the one in a previous post from a guy in Australia.
You can't get around it no matter how much you try: the Moth foiler with Rohan sailing it is the Fastest Sailboat Under 20' around a course. And his record only portends what is to come as more and more people get into foiling dinghies.
Not to mention whats going to happen as sportboats and larger begin to foil....
++++++++++++++++=================
Even I haven't made this claim--YET. But,gee, if Sailing World says it it MUST be true:
"They're monohulls ,but they move faster than a Tornado cat,sailing upwind as fast as 13 knots,downwind close to 30 knots"
Sailing World - Bladerider Moth: The Unbearable Lightness of Moth-ing
Address:http://www.sailingworld.com/sailboat...ing-53964.html

[CT 249]

[quote=Doug Lord;168077]CT, you keep trying to distort the facts contained in Rohans comments. Well, it won't work-they are quite clear. You've been a long term anti-foiler- I remember your comments from the early days on the Moth forum where you repeatedly distorted facts.

No I didn't. I merely pointed out that some of the claims made (like "all OD classes die", that "Moths don't ban innovations" and similar were factually incorrect.

What did I say about foiler performances? "brilliant". "Remarkable". "Amazing". What sort of person would think that anyone who used those terms about foilers is "anti foiler"??

I blinkin' well pointed out that Rohan destroyed two world-class sailors on skiff types at the SS regatta. WTF would I highlight that if I was anti foiler?

I'm just anti BS.



Give it up.
This is what Rohan said:
Monday ,June 12,2006
"Each race of our division started 5 (FIVE) minutes behind the F18's, but by the end of my three laps,I had nearly caught and passed most of them. The highlight was passing them one at a time(to windward and to leeward) on a reach with their kites up! Only a few of the top guys on a Tornado and Hobie Tigers stayed ahead, but they weren't anymore than 2-3 minutes in front."
And thats after starting FIVE minutes behind.

And look at the important part. "ONLY A FEW OF THE TOP GUYS ON A TORNADO AND HOBIE TIGERS STAYED AHEAD.

But this is wrong. The simple truth is that there were other F 18s that finished minutes ahead of the Tigers. It's a matter of public record. It's there, in the official results I linked to earlier.

I'd love to know where you reckon the Mckeon and Goodall Capricorn F18s (which finished a minute or two or more before the Tigers Rohan referred to) were. What did they do - lurk in the bushes and jump out just before the finish line?

C'mon doug, give us a theory - where were the faster F18s? If they weren't in front of the Tigers (which is where they finished) where were they??

The facts are simple. The very boats that Rohan referred to were well beaten by other F18s. None of your abuse and bluster will erase that.

Rohan's not the one who is distorting anything - YOU are.

-------------
As to the Tornado Alive quote- I have no idea what race he was referring to

So how do you know whether the 18 Foot Skiff crew were competent???? How good is your research?


but there are numerous quotes all over the internet about the speed of the F18 catamaran vs the Aussie 18 skiff including the one in a previous post from a guy in Australia.

Oh, some guy in Australia. Well, he MUST be an excellent source.

So if all you know is that he's "some guy in Australia", do you know whether he had a good viewpoint? What Skiffs did he race? Who was on them? Does he have an unbiased viewpoint?

If you don't know this, how can you rely on the information?

You can't get around it no matter how much you try: the Moth foiler with Rohan sailing it is the Fastest Sailboat Under 20' around a course.


The cat versus 18 quote from TA came from the Brass Monkey. The 18 was 22 out of 32 at the nationals.

This is the regatta where the foiler was beaten by 12s most of the time. This is the regatta where the world's top 2 foilers performed poorly a couple of years ago.

If you take the BM as a true test of speed, the foiler is NOT the fastest boat under 20 feet by a long shot, in fact it's slower than a 12.

If you don't take the BM as a true test of speed, then the F18 v 18 foot skiff quote is not proof of their performance.

This is simple logic to anyone apart from a dustman or janitor with no ability to differentiate right from wrong.

Ct, I think you're way out of line. You keep insisting that the quote by the top foiler in the world and one of the best sailors in the world is "wrong". You are asking us to believe you instead of Rohan Veal-is that right? With first hand knowledge of your record I'm afraid I'll have to stick with Mr. Veals accounting of the incident. Sorry.
But after all this the whole question has been settled once and for all by Sailing World Magazine who says the Moth foiler is faster than a Tornado(see my previous post). And, if SW says it it MUST be true..... Of course, as backup we have Phil Stevo's remarks about pacing a Tornado off wind and then ,of course, the story of that UK regatta.....
This isn't about a few anecdotal reports-it's about years of consistent,factual reporting by Rohan and others-it's about the Fastest Sailboat under 21' around a course.

[CT 249]

Doug, I'm not asking you to believe me. I'm asking you to believe the official race times as published by the LVYC that ran the relevant regatta. Those race times (linked to above) show that the Tigers that were referred to finished well behind other F18s. Therefore catching Tigers does not mean being quicker than all the F18s.

Doug, please explain - if Rohan didn't make a tiny mistake and failed to see the Capricorn F18s well ahead of the Tigers he mentioned, where were the Capricorns?

We know they finished ahead of the Tigers Rohan referred to in the races - so where were they?

Please stop the accusations and abuse and explain where the boats that finished well ahead of the Tigers and Tornado Rohan wrote about were, if they were not well ahead.

Remember Doug, the world's #2 foiler sailor has asked you, here, "Please don't use anything I write to back up your point of view, whatever it is."

That's how much confidence the world's second best foiler sailor has about your use of what he says.

Remember Doug, the world's #2 Moth sailor has said that he doesn't think his Moth is as fast as he would be on his 18. Who can possibly know better than the only person who is world class on both 18s and foilers? Have you ever seen either of them???

Phil Stevo has asked you publically to stop using his Tornado quote. The very author of what you use has "evidence" has asked you to never quote it again and you still do so.....how credible is that?

I would suggest that someone who has been publically disavowed by leading foiler sailors who fear his misuse of their posts, is not a person who can lecture others on interpretation of posts.

The whole idea that a quote from SW settles the matter is hilarious.

The other funny thing is that it's quite possible that the foiler WAS quicker than the F18s - all I'm saying is that there is no such proof.

And the real screamer is that the foiler performed brilliantly against skiff types sailed by world class sailors, and that's a matter of record that cannot be gainsaid, yet you ignore that.

Note, Doug, in the last few posts I have referred to foilers as performing "brilliantly"; being "brilliant", "remarkable" and "amazing". Please explain how using those terms is being "anti foiler". Exactly what adjectives would suffice? What do you want me to say?

Sorry again, CT, but Rohan was there and I think he trumps your comments 100%. Perhaps you're confused since you weren't actually sailing with Rohan? Whatever.
Phil Stevo's quote is one of the most inspirational about Moth sailing ever-it will never stop being quoted.
You don't like Sailing World magazine,huh? Or just the story about the Moth being faster than a Tornado?
---------------
AGAIN:
--------------
CT, you keep trying to distort the facts contained in Rohans comments. Well, it won't work-they are quite clear. You've been a long term anti-foiler- I remember your comments from the early days on the Moth forum where you repeatedly distorted facts. Give it up.
This is what Rohan said:
Monday ,June 12,2006
"Each race of our division started 5 (FIVE) minutes behind the F18's, but by the end of my three laps,I had nearly caught and passed most of them. The highlight was passing them one at a time(to windward and to leeward) on a reach with their kites up! Only a few of the top guys on a Tornado and Hobie Tigers stayed ahead, but they weren't anymore than 2-3 minutes in front."
And thats after starting FIVE minutes behind.
-------------
As to the Tornado Alive quote- I have no idea what race he was referring to but there are numerous quotes all over the internet about the speed of the F18 catamaran vs the Aussie 18 skiff including the one in a previous post from a guy in Australia.
You can't get around it no matter how much you try: the Moth foiler with Rohan sailing it is the Fastest Sailboat Under 20' around a course. And his record only portends what is to come as more and more people get into foiling dinghies.
Not to mention whats going to happen as sportboats and larger begin to foil....
++++++++++++++++=================
Even I haven't made this claim--YET. But,gee, if Sailing World says it it MUST be true:
"They're monohulls ,but they move faster than a Tornado cat,sailing upwind as fast as 13 knots,downwind close to 30 knots"
Sailing World - Bladerider Moth: The Unbearable Lightness of Moth-ing
Address:http://www.sailingworld.com/sailboat...ing-53964.html

[CT 249]

Sure I wasn't there - but other people who were there have said that the foiler wasn't quicker than the fast cats. They were there - actually racing in the fast cat class which Rohan wasn't. The race committee who took the times down were there - they say the Capricorns were well ahead of the Tigers and Tornado Rohan saw.

So where were the Capricorns, Doug? All I'm asking is, whether it is possible that he did not see the Capricorns when sailing a fast-moving foiler on a crowded lake. There is almost no other way to explain the fact that he mentioned the Tigers and T, and not the fast boats in the class.

"It will never stop being quoted" - EVEN WHEN PHIL HAS PUBLICALLY ASKED YOU NOT TO AND HAS SAID THAT IT CAN MISLEAD. And you accuse OTHERS of quoting selectively?

Phil was there sailing a Moth near a Tornado, Doug. I was there, sailing a Tornado near Moths. We both say that you're using that quote wrongly. We were there, you weren't. You can't have it both ways.

And you accuse others of being selective in their quotes - how much more selective can you be, than quoting something that its very author has said is misleading and should not be quoted?

I like SW, I'm just amused by the idea that they are the ultimate authority, even the world's #2 foiler sailor and other people with vastly more experience in foilers.

Anyway, entering Dougland has been one way to get a break from writing a report, but as always it was going to be futile to bring in anything other than janitor logic to one of his threads. I'm outta here and no more correspondence will be entered into.

[Paul B]

Originally Posted by CT 249

So where were the Capricorns, Doug? All I'm asking is, whether it is possible that he did not see the Capricorns when sailing a fast-moving foiler on a crowded lake. There is almost no other way to explain the fact that he mentioned the Tigers and T, and not the fast boats in the class..

Why would you think this nutter would even consider looking at the results when he already has the answer he wants?

Originally Posted by CT 249

I like SW, I'm just amused by the idea that they are the ultimate authority, even the world's #2 foiler sailor and other people with vastly more experience in foilers.

The article was not written by anyone on the SW staff. It seems this is the only article available on their site from this author. We don't know who he is, or what his credentials are. Many things are written in magazines and on the internet that are not 100% true. There is a big difference between hard journalism (with fact checking), and entertainment reporting. Both have their place. I don't see this article as the former.

If you look at the SW article it was apparently written by someone who had not seen a foiling moth in the flesh until the day he did the test sail for the article, and then sailed the thing for less than half an hour. It seems he didn't sail at the speeds mentioned, and wasn't passing any multihulls of any sort.

He does not actually report seeing the boat go faster than a Tornado, he simply repeats information that was given to him by someone. Possibly someone who hadn't actually seen such a thing, but was only repeating something they had been told? Who knows?

[PI Design]

Jeez, this has been going on for 48 pages and we're where we were at he start! Its like Groundhog day...
No one denies foiling Moths are fast - they should be 'cos they're virtually out of the water! But the evidence as to what is fastsest (and how do you even define fastest?) is mixed. I've beaten RS600s (non foiling) over the water in my NS14, but I've also been beaten by a RS200. There are lies, damn lies and statistics...
Anyway, to help move the thread along a little, can anyone answer a question. Most foiling Moths still have hulls very similar to what they were like before foiling came along. They have very flat bottoms that look like they have been optimised for the high(ish) speeds they were achieving before foil. But now that the hull is airborne at 8kts(?) why are they not shaped with lower speeds in mind (sub 8kts) e.g. more rounded sections for lower WSA?

P.S. Doug, the A Class cats are holding their Worlds in Florida next week. You should take the opportunity to see for yourself the amazing speeds and height they sail at and the innovations they use.

[astevo]

i still follow this thread, god knows why, but now there has actually been an inteligent question asked ill chime in.
PI,
initially the emphasis was on the things of highest priority, mainly foils, and the hull design was left as a good proven standard, like the prowlers, Hungrytiger shapes etc. basically there was no massive weakpoint in these designs and the were easily adopted. Full force( UK) went downt he path of hardening up the chines aft to try to get the water to release off the sides in marginal foiling conditions where the transom drags a bit. All other existing foilers are using very similar hulls. generally pushing to wider stern waterlines and harder chines. The are also very good at recovery from ventilation crashes, as even though the hull goes down, i think if it were fatter the boat ould slow down much more suverely.

PhilS and myself have been talking about making round bottom type hulls for the reduced WSA and light air performance. Foiling seems to happen at about 6-7 knots of boat speed and this is still over the abstract theoretical hullspeed number ( 4 point something isnt it(1.34*sqrt (11)?)) so im not sure the benefit is there to be gained. i dont know really.

If i build a boat, ill probably just try to scam a mould of someone and worry about the bits that seem to matter most.

[PI Design]

Cheers Astevo,
Thats what I guessed - no-one's got round to it yet. In my minds eye I picture something like an A cat hull - wave piercer, round sections etc, but I guess that it would need to be a bit wider than an A cat hull so the wave piercer bit may not work.
David Gerr (author of many boat design books and director of the Westlawn Institute) has developed a 'hull speed' calculator that is more accurate than the 1.34*sqrt L (he has verified it against lots of models etc). It uses the displacement length ratio to change the 1.34 factor. I e-mailed him about the range of boats it applied to and he reckons it fits boats of all sizes, power and sail, so it should be usable to estimate a Moth's 'hull' speed.
The formula is: V = 1.24*L^1.433 / D^0.311
where v is kts, L is feet and D is displacement in pounds.
I read somwhere that Rohan Veal + Moth = 206lbs
which gives a hull speed of 7.34kts - much faster than the 4.44kts the usual formula gives!