Moth on Foils: 30.31 knots (34.86 mph)

[Baronvonrort]

Originally Posted by CT 249

I have yet to see cold hard undisputed evidence of a foiler consistently beating a top-class F18. It may - but we haven't seen it.

* I still reckon Hollywood did damn well to knock off the 12s a couple of times. I can't believe anyone would be worried that a boat with about 700 sq ft of sail and a 35kg hull beat a boat with 80 sq ft of sail.

PS - If Hollywood was sailed by PH, remember he's in the top 1/3 of the fleet - he was surely at least as good at current foiling as the other guys are at sailing their own boats.

Ct249

The foiling moth only beat the 12ft skiff once and that was in the first race and i am sure the 12ft skiff guys could give a few hard luck stories to explain that one.

The 12ft skiff beat the foiling moth in 3 out of 4 races.

It appears that Rohan is the only Moth sailor making preformance claims and perhaps that has something to do with marketing the Bladerider.

Skandia week and Rohan admitted to being beaten by OK and 420 dinghies and the foiling Moth has not lived up to the hype in the 3 Brass Monkey regattas.

The foiling moth is an interesting boat yet it would not be my choice if winning a mixed fleet regatta was on the agenda.

[Busman1965]

[quote=Doug Lord;157839]------------------------------

Part of the big deal is that in 1999 for the first time in history a dinghy was sailed on just two foils. Prior to then dinghies and multihulls had all sailed on foils but a minimum of three foils.


This is not strictly true, when I worked for Dr. Bradfield,in the late 1980's, we made many sucessful flights only using 2 foils, at the time, we were using J foils, with AOA control via the rudder foil. We would tuck up the windward foil, and fly on the leward and rudder foil only. It worked well enough, but was really touchy to keep flying for long periods of time. As a matter of fact, the most sepectacular crash I had, when I owned the foiler nf3 , was on two foils. The boat fell to windward, buried the windward ama, spun and pitchpoled, at about 20knts.......result, 3 broken ribs, both hands skinned to the bone, right leg flayed open kneecap to ankle. Hydrofoils are alot of fun, but non too civilized if sailed hard.

You may have sailed a three foil tri on just two foils and thats cool. Sam told me about neutralizing the wand on the windward foil but never mentioned what you describe. In fact, when I brought up saiing a monofoiler on just two foils he thought it was impossible-in hindsight probably because of the experience you describe.
There is no question that the Moth is the first sailboat of any type to be designed to sail on just two foils and to do so in a reliable manner.
Sam was not familiar with this kind of technology by his own admission but was impressed when I showed him the first bi-foil Moth sailing.I don't think he thought it would amount to much...

[Chris Ostlind]

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

I don't think he thought it would amount to much...

Hmmmm? Does this mean that Dr. Sam could have been wrong about the full spectrum of foil potential?

What does that say about your on-going foiling monologue in the face of many solid, counter arguments?

Are you, in fact, doing something similar by not seeing the well-directed light as provided?

Would the good doctor have engendered your additional respect if he had openly addressed the possibilities of the twin foil concept? What would an attitude such as that get you if you also behaved in an open and reciprocal manner towards the positions of others?

No disrespect intended towards the history of Doctor Sam Bradfield's contributions.

Originally Posted by CT 249

....
1) without giving supporting information such as the date, time and place.

People like me have said that we need such information, because sailor skill is so important that we need to know it's a good A Class (or whatever) that the foiler beat. If a foiler beat a slow A Class, then it means little. My club has a couple of As that a Laser could sometimes beat.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
2) In this case, you're trying to explain a "poor"* performance by a foiler on the basis of sailor skill - yet in some of the cases where the Moth has beaten other boats, the other boats may have been beaten by sailor skill as well. If you want to use the sailor's skill as an explanation when foilers get by conventional boats, you should also let us make sure that sailor skill is not the explanation when conventional boats are beaten by foilers.
+++++++++++++++++++++
3) Taking the best-case performance and applying it across the boat is not a good indication of true all-round pace in many craft.

4)I have yet to see cold hard undisputed evidence of a foiler consistently beating a top-class F18. It may - but we haven't seen it.

--------------
CT, among other things you have repeated the same things you've said for years that have been proven conclusively not to be true. From your post:
1) I have repeatedly given the date, time and place of the events I have quoted where Rohan has beaten 49ers, A class cats and the F18 among others and you know that. In addition as regards A class cats I have corroborated Rohans story with posts from the A class forum-where most of those posts including Rohans were lost in the last couple of years due to a technical glitch on that forum.

-------------------------------
2) Boy this ticks me off. It is vintage CT : where deliberate distortion is your stock in trade! You have repeatedly done this sort of thing since the hydrofoil debate on the old Moth forum and its just not right. Read what was said in #2 above and this is from the post before it that you were answering:
from post 643:
--
"Whether it was the sailor, the boat or the conditions or just a bad day I don't know but I do know that the Moth can beat the F18, 49er and Flying Dutchman."
---
IN NO WAY DID I PUT THE RESONSIBILITY FOR THE POOR MOTH PERFORMANCE ON THE SAILOR as you specifically said I did. I said I didn't know but because it fit your agenda you deliberately distorted my comments! Why?
------------------------
3) When you have an entirely new kind of sailboat that represents an entirely new way to sail the ONLY way to understand its potential is to look at what the best in the class can do with it! In the A class case and the 49er case Rohan sailed against top people in those classes. In the case of the F18's at the 2006 Sauna I don't know the skill level of the F18 FLEET Rohan beat.If it wasn't for Rohans total dedication to understanding monofoiling we'd have no real idea of how utterly fantastic this new technology is. When "a Moth" sails against a fleet of boats that
Rohan has beaten and gets last you can bet that SOMETHING is wrong with that picture!!!
-------------------------
4) Cold ,hard undisputed evidence: Rohan Veals word is good enough for me-the undisputed part is hard to come by in any recounting of Moth performance-so I take it from the man who was there.

[CT 249]

Originally Posted by Baronvonrort

Ct249

The foiling moth only beat the 12ft skiff once and that was in the first race and i am sure the 12ft skiff guys could give a few hard luck stories to explain that one.

The 12ft skiff beat the foiling moth in 3 out of 4 races.

It appears that Rohan is the only Moth sailor making preformance claims and perhaps that has something to do with marketing the Bladerider.

Skandia week and Rohan admitted to being beaten by OK and 420 dinghies and the foiling Moth has not lived up to the hype in the 3 Brass Monkey regattas.

The foiling moth is an interesting boat yet it would not be my choice if winning a mixed fleet regatta was on the agenda.

Yes, the Moth only beat all of the 12s in one race. In another, the lone Moth beat most (2 out of 3) of the 12s. In the other races, he was well beaten.

I didn't want to give too much detail because I get criticised for having long posts. And a single boat from one class beating all 3 from another class in one race and then 2 of the 3 in another race is pretty damn good IMHO.

Given the proven performance of the foilers against world-class 14s and 49ers on Port Phillip Bay, surely it's easy to see a foiler could beat a 12 sometimes?

I agree, there could be hard luck stories to explain the first race - but in the first BM, the foilers had hard luck stories (broken gear, borrowed boats, fluky winds etc) that can explain their poor results then. They definitely did have some of these problems although some of the broken gear was pretty minor.

Surely we should be consistent. If we are going to use hard luck stories as a way to excuse the 12's loss in R1, when we must be able to let the foilers use hard luck stories as a way to excuse their performance in the first BM.





Race1

1539 Sea Wind F 18
1822 SX Projects 18ft Skiff
2001 Hollywood goes Tiger Moth Foiler
2052 O 12ft Skiff
2124 Politese FD
2204 Dipolar 12ft Skiff
2216 CST Composites 12ft Skiff
2581 Chick n Wings 49er

Race2

1961 Sea Wind F 18
2425 SX Projects 18ft Skiff
2485 O 12ft Skiff
2679 Politese FD
2825 Hollywood goes Tiger Moth Foiler
2828 Dipolar 12ft Skiff
3003 CST Composites 12ft Skiff

Race3

2571 SX Projects 18ft Skiff
2623 Sea Wind F 18
2796 Chick n Wings 49er
2957 O 12ft Skiff
3021 Dipolar 12ft Skiff
3107 CST Composites 12ft Skiff
3327 Politese FD
3794 Hollywood goes Tiger Moth Foiler

Race4

1513 Sea Wind F 18
1651 SX Projects 18ft Skiff
1928 Chick n Wings 49er
2060 O 12ft Skiff
2134 CST Composites 12ft Skiff
2233 Politese FD
2234 Dipolar 12ft Skiff
2789 Hollywood goes Tiger Moth Foiler
3288 Jive Mosquito (Cat Rig)

[Chris Ostlind]

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

3) When you have an entirely new kind of sailboat that represents an entirely new way to sail the ONLY way to understand its potential is to look at what the best in the class can do with it!

Actually, Doug, this is only ONE of the ways in which the potential of a new boat should be measured and it's not the most important, as you indicate in the quote above. Considering that this boat is aimed, directly, at the consumer sport dinghy marketplace, the single most important yardstick of the product is to see what the average Joe can do with it, as that is where the most boats will be sold.

How many can you sell to Rohan and the four or five guys like him in skill level? The answer to that is zero, since they already have sponsored rides. So, that makes the thin end of the bell curve, where Rohan resides, one of the least important benchmarks for the class if you wish to sell a lot of boats and stay alive in a really dim global small craft market.

Fast guys on fast boats are decent sizzle and you do have to have that stuff, but it's not the meat and potatoes of the selling business.

Don't believe me... go ask any marketing department in the world who they want for their buyers. It isn't the thin end of the market curve where the speedy guys live and until you really get that, all the hype you pump is as valuable as the four or five units you can move there for no income at all.

Originally Posted by Chris Ostlind

.... the single most important yardstick of the product is to see what the average Joe can do with it....

Average Joe-MothFoiler-Consumer Sport Dinghy????
Maybe you're refering to the Peoples Foiler?

[Chris Ostlind]

No, Douglas my dear, that’s not your offstage Mommy providing you with your lines in your first play in grade school.

This is exactly why you piss people off so frequently on so many significant forums where substantive ideas are shared. You simply can not stop yourself from the endlessly repetitive dialogue with yourself.

You put up a thread on this same Sailboats heading titled, People's Foiler II.
Peoples Foiler II-the newest boats
It died a rather quiet death after 14 commenting posts, with 6 of them being posted by you. Aside from the fact that the business of fluffing your own thread with personal posts looks pretty doggoned desperate, you noted a few links in the first post.

You sent the pack to a thread at Sailing Anarchy and conveniently URL'd it to land on a mid-thread post by yourself. Trouble is, Doug, I took the time to backtrack that thread to the beginning and throughout the wildly powerful posts there from other experienced foiling world members, you really got your butt kicked soundly. Here's the real beginning of that thread
http://www.sailinganarchy.com/forums...pic=55578&st=0

Time after time you get rolled over by some of the real players in the foiling world, mostly out of OZ and they totally have their way with you before dressing you up and sending you on your way. Much of the horsepower for your trundling was because you refuse to acknowledge the good works of others when they outpoint you in conversation.

Good Gawd, Man! have you gone totally daft? When you get worked like that, you're supposed to have the sense to lay low and then leave the thread alone so it will fade into ignominy. You don't want to advertise your being trundled. Yet, there it is right in the middle of the first paragraph.

Some of the things you said to those guys on that thread would have gotten your butt soundly beaten down if you had been doing that in an OZ boater's pub. The Internet must make you feel studly.

And here we are, Back To The Future, and you won't allow one single moment when you are not spewing party line. Where did you learn that poor conversational skills are not fixed by boredom of philosophy?

I generally find you a bright sorta guy, Doug. So why do you feel you need to constantly hash out the so overly obvious redundancy in order to get yourself heard. We heard you a long, long time ago. Nauseatingly so.

Please find a new way to bring people into the fold of your interests besides hitting them over the head with repeat nonsense every time they get the slightest bit mellow towards your personality.

In simple terms, Doug... you are a rough thug of a conversationalist and the act has grown extremely wearing. Get some grace about you and learn that others around here have significant intellectual capabilities, vast experience and product insight you only dream of possessing.

What does it cost you to acknowledge the works of others?

I saw that you badgered SimonN about weaseling out of responding to you on the SA thread. I take it then, that in producing what you consider to be solid position arguments, you want to be respected enough that someone would respond to you. Yes, I said you expected someone to respond to you. And that doesn't mean with your smart aleck hat on, either.

When you exhibit the same kind of effort here, which you seem to expect from others, you'll be giving what anyone in conversation wishes, to be acknowledged for the exchange of ideas. If you can't do that gracefully, then please have the temerity to, and pardon the phrase reference) STFU and let the conversation go in its own direction.

So you were talking about the Peoples Foiler?
The concept is one that I believe in and on that thread I was the only poster who proposed a concrete idea with technical details to back it up.Especially on SA but other places as well when people don't understand something they tend to resort to personal attacks-so be it. I've said it before: when someone comes at me with "attitude" I will respond-hopefully not "in kind" but I damn sure will respond. I believe in the technology and ridiculous comments that imply that a bi-foil monofoiler bigger than a Moth can't work don't phase me at all-no matter who makes them. The foiling 18's, I14's, RS 600 and possibly 700 ,M4 and others have shown what a crock that is. And because a long time ago I decided to look at concepts like a selfrighting sportboat monofoiler and a 60' "Moth" monofoiler technically and in detail I was able to prove on paper that these things are potentially possible. Time will tell but my belief in the technology and its wide range of potential applications
only gets stronger the more research I do.
-----------------
EDIT: When you start talking about "Joe Average" and a "Consumer Sport Dinghy " market and the Moth in the same breath I have a hard time believing you're serious and not kidding around or thinking of something else. I have never thought or said that the foiler Moth could be a mass market sport dinghy; it will only appeal to a small number of excellent sailors. It is NOT a Peoples Foiler candidate(as is) but it is the pinnacle of bi-foil monofoiler technology for the time being.

[CT 249]

[quote=Doug Lord;158105]--------------
CT, among other things you have repeated the same things you've said for years that have been proven conclusively not to be true. From your post:
1) I have repeatedly given the date, time and place of the events I have quoted where Rohan has beaten 49ers, A class cats and the F18 among others and you know that. In addition as regards A class cats I have corroborated Rohans story with posts from the A class forum-where most of those posts including Rohans were lost in the last couple of years due to a technical glitch on that forum.

Well, I've just gone through a search of your posts using "A Class" as the search term. In the first two pages of the results, some 27 of your posts referred to A Class cats getting beaten by a foiler. All I can find as far as time etc is two references to a blog, which refers to a regatta, for which results are no longer available. I may have missed something.

And about that regatta of foiler v A - we don't have enough detail to really work out what happened. Sure, the foiler may well have beaten them fair and square - but basing dozens of claims on one regatta isn't conclusive evidence.

Using the same search, I found 7 references to a foiler beating F18s. I cannot find any evidence of date, time and place, apart from some 7 references is to someone else's blog which refers to the F18s at Sauna Sail as follows;

"Each race of our division started 5 minutes behind the F18's, but by the end of my three laps, I had nearly caught and passed most of them. The highlight was passing them one at a time (to windward and leeward) on a reach with their kites up! Only a few of the top guys on a Tornado and Hobie Tigers stayed ahead, but they wern't anymore than 2-3 minutes in front."

So the evidence for your claim is one guy saying that at his finishes, the top Tigers were only 2-3 minutes in front. But the race results show that in the races the foiler finished, there were other F18s (Capricorns) that were well ahead (about two minutes) of the first two Hobie Tigers, and about 5 minutes ahead of the third of the 8 Tigers. In two of the races the second Tiger (remember, we're talking about plural Tigers in front of the foiler) was over 3 and almost 5 minutes behind the first F18 Capricorn.

So catching up 2-3 minutes on even the fastest Tigers means that the foiler was SLOWER than the first F18. Or maybe the foiler sailor mistook F18 Tigers for F18 Capricorns and an F16 or two (which got ahead of the Tornado and all but one or two Tigers once) but if he didn't observe and report the boats correctly, then how can we be sure that he was correct in estimating the time difference?

And what of the other factors? It seems to have been a strange regatta for one of the world's best Canoe sailors (he got no better than 3rd and 2nd last out of 30+) so maybe something odd was happening to the cats or foiler, too. Were the top F18s match racing? Tuning? Hungover? Did the cats sail into a hole? Did they get a bad shift?

Let's make no mistake - I THINK THE FOILER MAY WELL HAVE BEEN QUICKER THAN ALL THE F-18S. But you have NOT produced proof of this. The foiler's performance against the other fast dinghies was extraordinary enough, without trying to use half the races in one regatta (the foiler didn't finish the other 3!!) to say that it is proven that foilers beat F18s.

Remember, as soon as I saw proper evidence (ie finish times for the foiler v top-class 49ers etc) I become convinced that a foiler could beat 49ers and 14s a lot of the time. We have NOT seen similar hard facts about all the other boats you mention. Just give us the facts, like boats starting together, doing the same course, in official races.


3) When you have an entirely new kind of sailboat that represents an entirely new way to sail the ONLY way to understand its potential is to look at what the best in the class can do with it!


Possibly - but that's not proven. And foilers have been around for longer than windsurfers. Foiling Moths have been around for longer than Formula boards. Formula boards are radically different to earlier boards, yet according to you FW boards don't need to be sailed by the best! There's a contradiction there!



[/i]When "a Moth" sails against a fleet of boats that
Rohan has beaten and gets last you can bet that SOMETHING is wrong with that picture!!!
[/i]

What is faster on Port Phillip or Latrobe isn't always faster on Sydney harbour in a gusty westerly dropping to 5 knots with 45 degree shifts, as it was at the BM. The world's best foilers did the same regatta in its first year, also in a gusty westerly, and also found it extremely hard.

Let's not forget - you haven't sailed on or against any of these boats, bar an FD. I don't think you've seen most of these boats. You haven't sailed Sydney Harbour in a westerly. You haven't done a BM. That must effect your knowledge of how a foiler should go against those boats in that place in those conditions.

Let's also remember that at Sauna Sail, the foilers didn't even do half the races, so their performance in good conditions is not a guide to their performance in bad conditions. At the BM in its first year, they didn't finish the regatta and were brilliant sometimes but average or slow at others. Rohan says that the foiler is similar in pace to an OK in about 5 knots. So the foiler's performance at the BM could easily be explained by the fact that it was much slower AT CERTAIN TIMES.

I know you won't try to heed what I am saying. For the benefit of others, I object to the way you use little solid evidence for some of your claims, and then try to blame a boat or crew when they don't go as fast as you reckon.

I admit that I misquoted you re the reference to the skipper, and that you did say there may have been a boat problem....I read your stuff quickly and with an irate mood, because of the way you abuse and insult other people. That makes me careless at times.

I did not twist anything on the Moth mailing list. I merely pointed out the historical truth when some people got their facts wrong. It is simply not true to say (as some did) things like "one designs always die" and "the Moths have never banned developments" and it is wrong to use these mistaken beliefs as evidence when debating a class' future. But it's a bit silly to insinuate that I have an anti-foiler agenda when I was defending foilers against Baron at the top of this page!

[Baronvonrort]

Originally Posted by CT 249

Yes, the Moth only beat all of the 12s in one race. In another, the lone Moth beat most (2 out of 3) of the 12s. In the other races, he was well beaten.
And a single boat from one class beating all 3 from another class in one race and then 2 of the 3 in another race is pretty damn good IMHO.

Surely we should be consistent. If we are going to use hard luck stories as a way to excuse the 12's loss in R1, when we must be able to let the foilers use hard luck stories

Race1

1539 Sea Wind F 18
1822 SX Projects 18ft Skiff
2001 Hollywood goes Tiger Moth Foiler
2052 O 12ft Skiff
2124 Politese FD
2204 Dipolar 12ft Skiff
2216 CST Composites 12ft Skiff
2581 Chick n Wings 49er

Race2

1961 Sea Wind F 18
2425 SX Projects 18ft Skiff
2485 O 12ft Skiff
2679 Politese FD
2825 Hollywood goes Tiger Moth Foiler
2828 Dipolar 12ft Skiff
3003 CST Composites 12ft Skiff

Race3

2571 SX Projects 18ft Skiff
2623 Sea Wind F 18
2796 Chick n Wings 49er
2957 O 12ft Skiff
3021 Dipolar 12ft Skiff
3107 CST Composites 12ft Skiff
3327 Politese FD
3794 Hollywood goes Tiger Moth Foiler

Race4

1513 Sea Wind F 18
1651 SX Projects 18ft Skiff
1928 Chick n Wings 49er
2060 O 12ft Skiff
2134 CST Composites 12ft Skiff
2233 Politese FD
2234 Dipolar 12ft Skiff
2789 Hollywood goes Tiger Moth Foiler
3288 Jive Mosquito (Cat Rig)

CT 249
The first 2 races were held in the westerly and that was the foiling moths best day so it shows he must have been pretty good at boathandling in what can be a difficult breeze.

I cant dispute that a foiling Moth has beaten a 12ft skiff in one race at the last Brass Monkey regatta yet we should not forget that it was flogged in the other 3 races.

Should we also tally the results from the previous 2 BM regattas if we are going to compare the speed of 12ft skiff vs foiling moth?
Does that make it 11 wins to the 12ft skiff vs 1 win for the foiler?

How big does the gap in verified race wins have to get before the 12 ft skiffs can claim they are faster than a foiling moth.

[CT 249]

Baron, I'm not sure what the problem is - I never said or implied that the foiler was normally faster than the 12s. I just said that the foiler beat the 12s a couple of times; I don't think the foiler was "flogged" in R2, when it beat two of the three 12s. Sure, there may have been a reason, but there doesn't seem to be much doubt that a top foiler can beat 49ers and 14s in the right conditions so surely it's possible for a good foiler to beat 12s too?

I'm not trying to draw any big conclusions from one regatta. I'm no expert on this but I'm pretty sure that the 12 would be miles faster than the foiler in a lot of conditions, like light and shifty stuff. Phil would be one expert.

We both agree we should take into account all conditions and all races - that's what I'm trying to say to Doug! He raves on about the foiler "beating" F18s and 49ers (which the best of them can do or probably can do a lot of the time) but ignores the fact that in lots of races even the best the foiler gets killed or doesn't race, because they are only as fast as an OK.

Even if the foiler is faster than the 12 a lot of the time, it's so much slower in light stuff that the 12 would surely be much quicker as an all-round racer across the wind band - but in the right wind band the foiler's *&^%ing quick!

Sheet, it's a bit rough when I cop if from DL for being anti-foiler and I cop it from you for being pro-foiler!

[Baronvonrort]

Originally Posted by CT 249

I don't think the foiler was "flogged" in R2, when it beat two of the three 12s

I'm not trying to draw any big conclusions from one regatta.

We both agree we should take into account all conditions and all races - that's what I'm trying to say to Doug! He raves on about the foiler "beating" F18s and 49ers

CT249
In race 2 the foiler was 340 seconds behind the first 12ft skiff which is a long way at the speeds these boats are capable of and i think saying it was flogged is spot on.
It beat the 2nd 12ft skiff by 3 seconds!

I am not drawing conclusions from 1 regatta i have also considered Skandia where Rohan admitted to being beaten by OK and 420 dinghies along with the BM and there are no mixed fleet regatta records anywhere that have proven the foiling moth to be capable of dougs foiler hype.

The race results from the BM are in seconds so how many minutes did the F18 and 18ft skiff flog the foiling moth by?

[CT 249]

Ok, you can call beating 2 of 3 12s a "flogging" if you want.

I don't really understand where you're coming from....it's as if you think I'm hyping the foiler. I know you're not drawing conclusions from one regatta, neither am I. Let's both leave that little trick to someone else.

I referred to the fact that the foiler can get beaten by the OK in the light stuff, just like you did.
I said that if you took that poor light-wind performance into account, the Moth wouldn't be beating a skiff for overall speed.
I know the F18 and 18 Foot Skiff flogged the Moth, I never said they didn't.
If you look at my post to Doug you'll see I was also saying that it seems that F18s are faster than foilers even in foiling winds, and 18 Foot Skiffs are at least as quick as F18s.

If you think I'm trying to say that foilers are faster all-round than skiffs, you should re-read my posts. However, there is clear evidence (like Rohan's Moth v the Outteridge and Austin 49er in a regatta in MElbourne) that the foilers can be bloody quick and can beat 49ers and 14s IN THE RIGHT CONDITIONS, so in those conditions you'd have to think they'd probably be up with the 12s. Considering the size and expense of the foiler, that's pretty damn impressive.

Really, if you think I'm having a go at skiffs you're just not reading properly.

But have it your way - skiffs are the only fast boats, they always beat everything.

And Doug can have it his way - foilers are the only fast boats (apart from canters), they always beat everything.