Moth on Foils: 30.31 knots (34.86 mph)

[foilr]

In light of the fact that nearly every Mothie interviewed believes that pods make the boat much easier to sail in seahugger mode why wouldn't the class embrace pods for beginners to try to help build the class? And to let interested people have a go at foiling w/o the current trial by capsize first?

Doug, I said that there is no rule outlawing pods. There is one outlawing boats sailed as multihulls.

Capsizing is part of Moth sailing. If a sailor doesn't have the mindset to sail and capsize regularly, they shouldn't be a Moth sailor period.

Scott, that attitude is bound to grow the class to record numbers!(NOT)
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[Chris Ostlind]

OK, CT sorta forced me to get off my butt and look it up. That's OK as I was kinda burned-out on working on a SOT kayak design today and needed to get my head cleared.

The rules indicate a max length of 500 millimeters for gantry length (19.68 inches) so there is a limit to the structure. There is a provision in the rules to make a longer gantry if you are willing to give up an equal amount from the hull.

So here's my question for the foliers here... Does that 500 millimeters also include the chord of the rudder, or is that outside the magical 500 millimeters?

[usa2]

I dont understand why the Moth class needs to have record numbers. Its popular within a circle of several dedicated, highly skilled, athletic sailors. It doesnt need to have universal popularity.

[frosh]

Doug, stop wracking your brain, if you want the Moth Class to grow, pay prospectives first, in real bucks, (sort of a bribe) or provide a free state of the art boat! The Moth guys aren't going to do anything special to grow their numbers. You see the modern boats are elitist and so are the guys, and thats the way they want it!
Chris, I understand the 500mm rule is the gantry alone. The rudder chord if fairly large could easily extend a Moth to 14 feet!

2, thats good! And it seems to be an attitude shared by a couple of Australians.... I mean why help the back of the fleet? Why help some idiot standing on the beach just cause he's interested?
Why make it easier to start foiling? Why, there are already 7 or 8 foiler Moths in Australia....

[frosh]

Congratulations Doug, after around 1470 postings out of a total of 1473 in pushing foilers pretty much single handed, the truth has sank in. Thank God, as I was so-o-o exhausted trying to get the message through.
They don't wan't your help nor mine for that matter. Too many boats on the water is like driving your car in rush hour traffic, YUK!

[usa2]

Doug, if the "back of the fleet" is really interested in foiling, then they are going to be as dedicated to it as the few moth foiler sailors are as of now. I am pretty sure many Moth sailors are quite content with the way their boats are now. Seriously, if this was all about speed, then people would have ditched monohulls a long time ago.

Many classes would kill for the publicity generated by the Foiler Moth yet instead of doing whatever it takes to capitilize on this incredible technology the (apparent) guru's of the class say:" Let them sail seahuggers without foils for two years" The height of absurdity!! Rather than make use of simple technology(buoyancy pods-see post 247) that would get new people foiling quickly they say go capsize for a couple of years. Nuts!
The Moth class could capture the interest of many, many new people if they could skip EVEN TEMPORARILY the notorius "seahugger mode" that gives such bad press to learning to sail a Moth. Get the people foiling NOW and they will be hooked for good!
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Frosh, my interest in this boat and in this thread has been the technology-not the class. I just can't help commenting on the obvious lack of vision in building the class. Even one of Rohans most recent comments on his site(www.rohanveal.com ) was: "We need more boats".
Others won't make the same mistake when the Peoples Foiler arrives...

[Chris Ostlind]

Doug,

Why is it that anytime someone has the temerity to offer-up a reasoned argument that runs contrary to your position, you drop all civil pretense and run to the vitriol and invective in your responses?

As the level of hostility grows measurably from your quarter, others are encouraged to use their own, rather well-seasoned, command of the language and then Powee!, there goes the neighborhood?

I see you have a real problem with Foilr's comments about the Foiling fleet wannabes and you, who have no apparent vested interest in the sport as it is and have no racing experience in the class among these guys, just flat can't take no for an answer to your own position.

It's a position held by many on this discussion thread that perhaps you are taking all this just a little too seriously. Now, with all the hype and promo efforts gone for naught, you've possibly got too much hanging out on the limb in this regard and you perhaps have nowhere to go but down.

I read the tension in your words. "...the (apparent) guru's of the class say:-- The height of absurdity!!-- Nuts!" All this raised energy in the communication is an escalating tool that will inevitaby result in something less than optimal.

For the longest time we were subjected to the hype of your own speculative boat effort. Now that it has been shuffled off to other owners, with little to show, we have to listen to a more generic, but still excessive, series of rants about the stupiduty of the measured knowledge of the others who do participate in the very fleet which you criticize.

Whatever is going on with you, it's looking like it's headed for another session of ugly name calling and I urge you to reconsider. If it does go that way, remember to think back to the postings just above and realize that the point of civility was left behind with your posting.

[Dan S]

Doug,

I would recommend you Ponder Chris’s comments, so you don’t end up banned from this forum.

-Dan S.

[SuperPiper]

I left this forum to follow the Volvo Ocean Race (there are only so many internetting hours in a day). And when I returned, it was as though I had not missed a day.

Doug Lord was suggesting that foiling was the next revolution. And everyone else was saying: "Doug you are an idiot. The world is flat."

[frosh]

Doug, I'm very worried about you now. If as seems very likely, you stop producing postings to this forum hyping the Moth Class ( beacause the so and so's can't see a gift horse staring them in the mouth) what is going to be your "raison d'etre"?
People have been known to become quite depressed and stop eating and communicating when some idiots sweep the "raison d'etre" out from under your feet. (pLEE-EASE, don't stop posting here as what will I, Ostlind, CT249, and RHough do with ourselves during work-time when life gets a bit boring.
Let me make a proposal then: We should fight against any dinghy class to the death if necessary, that proposes to reduce its beam to less than 3 feet, (remember, TRIAL BY CAPSIZE) [probably hurts more than a good keelhauling].
Also that dirty F word. No racing class worthy of International status should be allowed to go the FOIL route; there I said it, and the heavens didn't cave in!

[foilr]

that attitude is bound to grow the class to record numbers

I realise that point of view is hard for you to accept Doug. It is however based on several years of Moth experience. Sailors who don't have a sound basis in Moth sailing gained via steady progress through the various iterations of Moths (scow/fat skiff/lazich/hungry tiger/foiler) are likely to not have the basics necessary to sail a foiler well. Those sailors who progress too quickly are more likely to burn out, lose interest and leave the class. Those who've progressed as their skills and their finances enable them are the ones who've provided the backbone of the class over decades.

The Moth has long been the realm of the enthusiast. It's culture has never been of the pay and play variety.

I'm sure my attitude (which is shared by more than a few Moth sailors) will not lead to record numbers. However it will find the few who have the right qualities to be valued Mothies.

As I have said several times, there is nothing stopping a beginner from adding bouyancy pods to their boats. The reality is that nobody wants to do so. All current skiff/foiler sailors are happy with the current wing bouyancy system, or happy enough not to bother using something else.

The Moth class could capture the interest of many, many new people if they could skip EVEN TEMPORARILY the notorius "seahugger mode" that gives such bad press to learning to sail a Moth

There is nothing stopping a new sailor from buying a new foiling Moth from one of the 4 current manufacturers. Sebastian Josse may be the only one I know of to buy a foiler as his first Moth. Hardly a beginner there.

The most rewarding part of sailing a Moth (be it a foiler of a skiff) is the learning and improving process brought about by the immense challenge that is it. Flying around is the cream on top of far more valuable experiences in the boats.

Doug, as I've said before, we as a class do not need or want your promotion efforts or advice. Your ill-informed views have made you a pariah wherever they are voiced. Please keep your comments grounded in the reality of your own experiences, not those you've shared by reading web sites. You have managed to belittle the informed opinions of current and previous Moth administrators and sailors. I for one don't appreciate it.

By all means continue to promote the achievements of the M4 or the aeroSKIFF, don't pretend to be a source of truth for Moths.

[Baronvonrort]

Originally Posted by foilr

The Moth has long been the realm of the enthusiast. It's culture has never been of the pay and play variety.

Doug, as I've said before, we as a class do not need or want your promotion efforts or advice. Your ill-informed views have made you a pariah wherever they are voiced. Please keep your comments grounded in the reality of your own experiences, not those you've shared by reading web sites. You have managed to belittle the informed opinions of current and previous Moth administrators and sailors. I for one don't appreciate it.

By all means continue to promote the achievements of the M4 or the aeroSKIFF, don't pretend to be a source of truth for Moths.

Amen foilr