Moth on Foils: 30.31 knots (34.86 mph)

[Rick Loheed]

Rhough and Doug,

Doug, Rhough has a point- look at Sam Bradfield's SCAT built at Multihull Technologies by Walter Shurtenburger- the same sort of layout though perhaps not so radical might help your cause. We try to always employ the KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid...) principal here, choosing to reduce technical risk by only advancing one tricky bit at a time. Our recently completed project was the USN LSC 'Sea Fighter', where we did not employ the KISS principal and it was highly difficult- though successful. See the Misc. Hybrid vessels forum at foils.org for Bill White's and my comments.

I am headed in the trimaran direction for my small hydrofoil sailing craft design -choosing to not try to fly my canoe as I suggested on the Foiler design thread, mainly because I can't replace the boat if I wrecked it and it is a beautiful piece of work. I recently purchased a Windmill class sailboat- it has has a very nice lightweight non-spinnaker rig- so light in fact that it can be lifted and installed by nearly anyone. The design draft is about 10% max, and has a bendy mast to flatten it with speed. It is a fractional rig with a small jib, perfect for my wife to handle (smaller than the E-Scow that I drive her nuts with...).

I just raced in my first National Regatta in the Windmill class this last weekend. I haven't competitively raced one designs for years- for the first time in a Windmill class regatta I fell we did O.K.... I need to study start tactics, as my old trickery did not work here....but my boat speed was adequate and I finished 15th out of 24 despite being scraped off on the committee boat a couple of times by the rest of the fleet, who obviously did not suffer from this problem and caught me 'barging'....!!

Anyway, my plan now is to use that rig to experiment with, and build a simple and inexpensive as possible test foiler on a hull I can break without guilt.....but I do not want a boat that is a sit in the center type of affair- I like to hike, it's fun- despite saying 'we're getting too old for this...' at the Nationals-I am 52..... I'll let you know how it goes once I get further along....

Now I have wasted all morning on my posts here, and so really must get back to work!!

Regards,

Rick Loheed

[frosh]

Rick, I think it is is just as well that you didnt go with your IC as a foiler test bed as you are not able to respond quickly enough on the end of a sliding seat and some very nasty crashes would be inevitable.
What is your vision for the small trimaran you are planning? Interesting that you plan to hike out, not sit in the middle as I thought was standard practice in the US.
What sort of foil design, and will they need are control system?
I assume what you are planning will have no resemblance to a Hobie Trifoiler??

[gggGuest]

If you're going to balance the boat (which seems eminently sensible, the windward hull pull down tris seem not to have the all round performance of a Moth) why a trimaran? In this context I've wondered about a catamaran with actively controlled daggerboard on the leeward hull, but the windward dagerboar foil set uncontrolled or maybe permanently lifting so that you fly the boat on just the lee foils, like a Moth, but have the reserve stability and extra righting moment of a catamaran. I'm not suffiently interested in owning either a foiling boat or a catamaran to try it though.

Rick, congratulations on the Windmill! One of my favorite boats. I raced one years ago all over the southeast. Back then the "hot" crew max was 260-what is it now?
I'm interested in exploring the potential of a two foil sailing hydrofoil in conjunction with a movable ballast system-it just sounds like fun to me. I worked on Dr. Sams test model for Skat and with his help designed and developed the F3 RC hydrofoil(www.microsail.com) I guess I have a bifoiler fixation because there is something about not using the foil to develop righting moment that is attractive as well as just having fewer foils. However, the Rave and the F3 were quite fast with Dr.Sams differential altitude control systems. The F3 model would take off in a 5mph wind.
My 16 worked well enough to encourage me to stick with a bifoil arrangement but tieing a bifoiler system into a movable ballast system is a real challenge that could have wide ranging benefits-and besides I do want a "sit in" configuration.
I forget the exact quote from Tom Speer but he was quoting the designer of the Australian catamaran foiler(Spitfire) as to why he preferred ballast instead of differential lift on the foils to generate RM-he said something like with ballast you only have to lift it once-whereas with a differential lift system the foil loading continues to increase as the boat goes faster.
I think gggguest might have something with a cat designed to sail on just two foils but the attendent problems retracting the other two and the requirement for four certainly add weight and complexity.The best thinking I've seen for a multifoiler since the Rave/Skat was a concept sketch from Rob Denney for a C class proa-using only two hydrofoils-it's on the C-class thread on SA.
Too bad you don't live near here Rick- I'd lend you my foils which would work fine for the Windmill(for a bifoil version)- maybe help think things out....
Good luck either way you go!

[gggGuest]

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

I think gggguest might have something with a cat designed to sail on just two foils but the attendent problems retracting the other two and the requirement for four certainly add weight and complexity.

I wouldn't retract them sailing. I'd have a string on each side of the boat that would disable the wand and put the daggerboard foil into full lift and aim to sail the boat with the windward foils clear of the water. Presumably you'd angle the foils so that the lifting surface was horizontal at the optimum heel angle, which would also mean the windward foil would hit the water one end first rather than all at once.

Something like that or maybe have it designed so that upwind at the ideal angle of heel the foils were angled simlarly to the way Moth foils are giving superb windward ability. In other words , so that the foils develop some of the lateral resistance while unloading the daggerboard(s) on the cat...
index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=28677
Address:http://www.sailinganarchy.com/forums...=post&id=28677

[Rick Loheed]

My canoe isn't an IC, it is a very nice cold molded sailing/paddling canoe designed and lovingly built (Instrument quality workmanship) by my brother, Phil Loheed of the Loheed Design Partnership. It is shown here in the Phils Canoe.jpg linesplan done in Freeship. It has high enough hullspeed and a narrow stern- I fugured this made it possible to trim up for take off. The hull weighs 130 Lbs., It does not have a sliding seat, but has rails to hook your toes under, and carries ~80 SF of sail already. Since the Moths have hiking racks like Bethwaite's 18's, I thought maybe it would be slightly tricky, so I planned some ailerons despite the extra drag. The Canoe sails very well indeed + is extremely pretty + would be impossible to replace, so....change of plan....

Although I do not want to discuss too much about the details before it is really more mature, the enclosed HardChineAftTri_Linesplan.JPG set of lines is where I was headed with a 16 ft hull. The "Ama's" are not right yet, and I do not intend to use them except for initial stability. Deck layout would be like a Scow, with the central hull open for your legs and for hiking straps, floor block, etc. It would be rigged like a modern Windmill. There would be 2 forward T foils (P/S), and I have a "reasonably simple" design that is retractible. I also have my own plan for height control based on some of our experiences with flight controls, though it is totally "analog" without any electronics, and I'd rather not elaborate until I am sure it will all work. Either way, once I test it I'll report on it here, just not until it is "tested and broken" ad nauseum.....but it works mathematically so far..nothing jumping out to say I am totally nuts yet.....

It is possible I might just try bifoiling the Windmill first, I don't know. Financing for any of these projects is tight at the moment.

[gggGuest]

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

Something like that or maybe have it designed so that upwind at the ideal angle of heel the foils were angled

Something like this?

Just like that but with the windward foil clear of the water and the leeward foil at the angle you show it(at the ideal angle of heel). It would be a piece of cake to retract the windward foils so the hydrofoil was close to the bottom and so at the ideal angle of heel the two leeward foils were just as you show them. The Moth has proven that to be an upwind advantage and this boat would have a power to carry sail advantage over an equivalent length monofoiler. The bad news continues to be the weight of the extra set of foils and their wetted surface when the windward hull comes back down. But those two drawbacks will definitely have their impact reduced by the enormous sail area. And, if built lite enough, this thing could parallel the Moth low windspeed takeoff giving it quite a wide range of really hot performance.
Another cool thing with the idea is that a central wand could be used that is automatically disconnected from the windward foils as they are raised. I think you may have something here....

Very interesting discussion here on technical subjects relating to the foiling Moth including foil sizes,wands, rudder foils, gantries, hull design for foilers and the impact of foiling on the Moth class:
design update 06
Address:http://moth.iointegration.com/DesignUpdate06.htm Changed:10:37 AM on Tuesday, February 14, 2006

The Moth worlds have started in Denmark with something like 31 of 33 boats foilers-probably the largest foiler fleet ever:
Scuttlebutt Photos: Moth International World Championship 2006
Address:http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/photos/06/mothworlds/
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International Moth Class UK Homepage
Address:http://moth.iointegration.com/ Changed:12:28 PM on Monday, July 24, 2006
New pix posted here as of 7/29-
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International Moth World Championship 2006
Address:http://www.horsens-sejlklub.dk/IMWC2006/index.HTM Changed:3:50 PM on Monday, March 20, 2006
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Cool shot of a foiler fleet-all on foils-at the start:
06-12265_MothWorld-01.jpg?story=1781
Address:http://www.rohanveal.com/photos/2006...jpg?story=1781 Changed:4:29 PM on Thursday, July 27, 2006
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Congratulations to Simon Payne for first and to Rohan Veal for second.
Dominant showing by the UK Foiler Moth Team!


The Revolution continues......

See the August 4, 2004 issue of Scuttlebutt(issue 2152) for an excerpt from the Daily Sail on the Olympic potential of the International Moth and/or it's one design cousin ,the Bladerider.
Just below that is a new video showing the Moth decimating the current Olympic Laser.....
Scuttlebutt: Your Source for Daily Sailing News
Address:http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/
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Interesting discussion on the Moth in the Olympics:
Foiling Moths as Olympic class - Sailing Anarchy Forums
Address:http://www.sailinganarchy.com/forums...howtopic=39068
The Revolution continues....

[frosh]

My reading of scuttlebutt seems to indicate that it is very possible that Olympic Sailing will take a downgrade after an expected near windless regatta in China 2008. Already we are seeing the least media interest in this event every time a games is held.
The pressure will be on all existing Olympic classes not to be eliminated from the London games in 2012, rather than the possibility of adding a new class.
The Moth being development, one of very few left in the world, has no chance. Furthermore the IMCA would never agree to go one design even if an offer was on the table from ISAF.

[CT 249]

The fact that the Moth beats the Laser is not exactly a surprise.....based on sheer price alone a Moth should be 50% quicker than a Laser. Moth have been quicker than Lasers in a breeze for about 30 years and in that 30 years Laser numbers have increased and Moth numbers have decreased (which is a tragedy but something that surely reasonable people should take to heart and try to learn from).

It's a little bit like getting all excited about the fact that a Formula board can beat a Moth downwind in breeze - it's only to be expected, so who cares?

Apart from the pun, I'm surprised that the Daily Sail thinks that a class that gets 33 boats at a worlds (fewer than in the vast majority of earlier worlds in that class) is said to be "in the ascendancy".

In the interests of fairness;

1- I must say that there's an interesting post from the the current International Canoe European champion that mentions that he finds foiling his Moth to be clearly more fun than sailing the Canoe most of the time.

2- Given the comments about foilers and weed, surely we should note that another Aussie's blog reveals that he (a top 10 sailor in the worlds) also dropped back in the fleet because weed got stuck on his centreboard. He was back to the 30s or so before he cleared it, so that hurt his entire world championship.

Interesting point is that he was sailing the Laser Radial Worlds, not the Moth worlds. :-)

[RHough]

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

Just below that is a new video showing the Moth decimating the current Olympic Laser.....

So what? The Olympic classes are not the fastest boats around. Never have been. The fact that a Moth can beat a Laser means nothing. A Tempest can beat a Star, so what? ... What class is raced in the Olympics? There are any number of 3 man boats that are faster than the Soling, so what?

There is no way that a class that draws 30 boats to their Worlds is going to replace a class where regattas have to be separated into gold and silver fleets. The 2005 Senior Laser Worlds had only 138 boats, because entry is limited. The 2005 Master Laser Worlds also had over 125 sailors.

How can you even begin to compare a boat where beating 30 others makes you a world camp against a boat that requires that you beat 100's of others just to get an entry into a 125+ boat fleet?

Which class is going to create better sailors? The huge low tech class (Laser) or the tiny high tech class (Moth)?

Dream on Doug.