Moth on Foils: 30.31 knots (34.86 mph)

Lunch gets away: see this thread and post #85 byJim C---
The 20 Knot Club - Sailing Anarchy Forums
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It's my first time; please be kind:
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Address:http://moth.iointegration.com/FirstTimeSP.htm Changed:3:53 AM on Friday, June 30, 2006

[foilr]

From http://www.luka-damic.com/ on 03/July/2006

Also it looks almost certain that I will pull my boat of the market very shortly with very little interest in the class and second hand boats in Australia.

I haven’t received a single phone call after 2 months, so I’ll just finish the last few cosmetic things that I was going to do and sail it. It doesn’t bother me as I still think it’s a very competitive boat, but its all quite surprising after Moths recieved so much publicity.

Scott(Scott Babbage= foilr), whats your point and why the anonymity?
So Luka says there's not much interest in the boat-maybe his price is too high?
Because, somethings not right with this picture: if theres not much interest in the foiler Moth why in the world would Andrew McDougall of KA SAILS,Auatralia be investing 10's of thousands of dollars in the Bladerider tooling , say to me that there has been an "overwhelming response", and be setting up for a 16 boat per month production capability? Why would John Ilett have ramped up his Prowler production capacity?
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International Foiler Moth -Fastacraft Prowler
www.fastacraft.com
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International Foiler Moth - Bladerider
http://www.kasail.com/sailing/bladerider.html

[frosh]

Hi Luka, having looked at your website and the photos and description of your foiler Moth, it seems a very classy boat, and you would expect, very desirable.
The lack of interest in being able to find a buyer is the precise point of somewhere close to 100 postings on this thread.
It is like offering 100 amateur aicraft enthusiasts a choice of owning for free either a new Lear jet or an immaculate Tiger Moth biplane. My theory is that the majority will go for the low tech biplane, even though it costs much less.
If they had to pay for their gift then it would be overwhelming. Probably no- one would go for a Lear jet.
Sorry, I digress from boats but I wanted to use an example that would not inflame biases we already have.
Looking at a hard to believe example in dinghys, have a look at the PDracer.
http://www.pdracer.com/
My understanding from Boatmik ( a regular poster on this forum), is that there is a very significant interest and many boats currently being built and registered.
What can we say about the growth in active International Moths? Negative growth from all reports, except from one notable poster.
The emphasis on high and higher performance, and corresponding cost increases, and loss of user friendliness, is the main cause of the huge decline in Australian dinghy sailing.

So-- This is why anyone who blows his trumpet repeatedly at how quick a foiler Moth can go, is being counter-productive to the overall sailing scene, as the absolute speed is such a small aspect of the whole sport. He is also part of the mechanism of destroying dinghy sailing as foiler sailing is like a side show attraction, and contrary to his ongoing bleatings will NOT become the mainstream of sailing, competitive or recreational!

[Chris Ostlind]

Specious, rhetorical quote from the Dougster: "if there's not much interest in the foiler Moth, why in the world would Andrew McDougall of KA SAILS,Australia be investing 10's of thousands of dollars in the Bladerider tooling?"

First of all, is that US or AUS dollars? (no disrespect intended towards my OZ brothers)

Second of all, I'll answer your question, Doug, with a rhetorical one of my own. "If it was such a dumbass and risky idea, why would Ford invest millions of USD$ in tooling for the Pinto?"

Surely, you'd have to agree that Ford had enormously greater amounts of braintrust capacity and overall expertise in the automotive industry than does a small company such as KA Sails in the boating world? And yet, there they went, investing millions of dollars in fabrication technology in a car that was essentially a huge mistake and ended-up costing the company millions more in near terminal resolution of liability claims.

Companies invest sums like this in new technology in what amounts to a crap shoot of supposedly educated guessing. Nobody has a crystal ball on these things or there'd be millionaires on every corner. Why, even you, Doug, would have the cash on hand to do something more than spout-off incessantly about foilers. And yet, you don't and in the grand scheme of things, there's a very good reason for that.

KA has made a business choice and they have to cross their fingers and hope it turns out OK for them. If the marketplace thinks this is a dumbass idea, then no matter what KA Sails has done before will not be enough to fix the problem. The rate of failure for decisions like these is extremely high and there is no guarantee that their take is the correct one.

Like I said way back in January, Doug... cough-up your own cash if you think this is such a cookin' deal. You'll make yourself a mini-player of sorts, for a short time anyway. You can use the big spender resources to launch that next, oh-so-cool, tech solution you are sure will light the world on fire.

If you can't see clear to dump your own money into an ultra risky enterprise like a technical go-fast item for the boating world, why should anyone else believe one word of your hype?

Since you are not leading and you are too proud to follow, I suggest you get out of the way.

[foilr]

whats your point and why the anonymity?

The post by Luka on his web site backs up the theory from CT and others who have suggested that the publicity generated by the foiler does not necessarily relate to popularity.

I don't post anonymously. I post with the foilr username and include my photo as the avatar. Anyone with half a brain can work out exactly who I am.

So Luka says there's not much interest in the boat-maybe his price is too high?

Maybe the price is high. But it is one of very few hydrofoil Moths available to purchase. At a replacement value of $18000AUD, $12500AUD does not seem greedy.

[luka9333]

So Doug, I take it you have seen my boat to be able to make a judgement that it is overpriced?

Perhaps you could suggest what I should ask for it, seeing you really know your stuff....

[frosh]

Well Doug, I wasn't expecting that it would happen within 24 hours, but now that some of your "beloved" Moth foiler sailors have seemed to turn on you can I remind you of the line in my penultimate posting which predicts:
"then you have a rude shock in store, when one day the truth hits you!"
You are on your own now "mate"

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

CT, I'm just curious: where are all the new boats going? If my information is correct and there are three manufacturers of foiler Moths going wide open, just what is going on?
Could it possibly be that the "facts" you presented in your inimitable way reflect 80 or so years of non foiler Moth production and don't yet reflect the rapidly increasing foiler population?
Let's see: the foiler Moth has only been around since 1999 and only in more or less limited production for around three of those years with Full Force entering the market just last year or the year before with John tooling up and refining rapidly the whole time.
And the most interesting question is: why would a well known company like KA invest the loads of cash in the tooling for it's Moth/Bladerider if there wasn't a "phenomenal" demand?
Gee, I wonder if it's possible that the numbers you refer to just don't reflect the reality of the situation; ya think?
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International Foiler Moth-Prowler
www.fastacraft.com
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International Foiler Moth - Bladerider
Address:http://www.kasail.com/sailing/bladerider.html Changed:11:41 PM on Monday, June 5, 2006
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Full Force UK- Mistress(I think)

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I don't think the measure of the foiler Moth can be accurately reflected by some poor guys attempt to sell a 3 year old race boat in Australia: for gods sake, the revolution just started 7 years ago and the technology is improving by leaps and bounds every year. I think anybody in their right mind would think long and hard about spending $12,500AUD on a used boat with any knowledge at all of development in the foiler Moth!
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It's probably not accurate to use the term "popular" to describe the foiler Moth(as I have before)-it simply hasn't been around long enough to have it's numbers match up against other Moths that have been being built for 70 or 80 years but the question above is valid: where are all the new boats going?
It would seem that if KA is not blowing hot air then they are about to add significant numbers of foiler Moths(16 per month) to the overall Moth population. It's hard to see Luka's point or CT's point or Babbage's point when there is so much investment and building going on in a class where they say there is "little interest" in an "unpopular" boat.
And there is the other major point: the foiler Moth has proven something technically feasible that even some of the best foiler designers in the world said was impossible in 1999: that a monohull could be sailed on just two foils;that a monohull 11' long could beat almost every other dinghy and multihull under 20' around a course-repeatedly; that an 11' monohull could approach 30knots etc,etc.
These facts at some point will lead to a Peoples Foiler-a boat that will be nearly equivalent in performance to the Moth but much easier to sail and probably significantly less expensive as well. It's not a question of "if" but only of "when" with numerous groups around the world working toward this goal NOW.

[Chris Ostlind]

Why does this always have to be motivated by purchasing another foiling boat, Doug? (My edit. Note:If it seems that this letter is out of phase somehow... This original question, along with the next two short paragraphs, were posted in response to the first, now since disappeared, posting by Mr. Lord)

What if Luka is going to use the money to buy his dear old Grandmother one of those electric wheelchair things so she can get around on her garden paths a bit more efficiently? There's a proper tech solution that you seem to disregard as valid.

What if Luka just wants out, or wants to detune his profile so it makes more sense... or any of a dozen possible alternate answers other than getting another foiler?

Man, I've never seen a person so wrapped in his own, perceived sense of glory. What is it in your life that allows you to be so manic about this aspect of sailing? If the "big time" cash thing invested by KA is such a mental hurdle for you that you have to keep reciting the rhetorical mantra like this, what does the daily cash expenditure going on with the AC boats mean to you? KA's "possible" investment is similar to the laundry costs for any of the AC teams and yet you continue to flash it up there like it's singularly important in some way.

If you want to be perfectly practical about the whole matter, and that is a demonstrable trait that seems to be in short supply with all the foam in the air, KA has probably recouped their investment through increased web traffic flow and additional orders for existing products, without a single foiling product going out the door.

It can be shrewd to jump into a flavor of the month product from a marketing perspective if it directs enough capital into your accounts from sales of other products. If the foiler thing actually sells a few boats during its run, then so much the better. Still, it doesn't mean a thing about committment to a niche product and can easily be abandoned if the supposed excitement runs the course and falls out of favor. The technique is done all the time in marketing circles.

If you want an indicator of the depth of product sincerity at KA, then take a long look at how much of their additional cash on hand they put in to profile marketing of the product outside of the web presence. Do they take out expensive ad space in publications, pop for full sponsorship of a regatta specifically for these types of boats, have mountains of promo schwag to hand out at related events, jump into a heavily supported "public benefit" campaign such as getting more youngsters out to the beach in boats (of any kind) And most telling... how long does the campaign last at high levels of cash output?

These are the types of signals that would indicate real support for the program and not just a careful observation of trendy motivators in the sport.

Certainly we can all name a list of cheeseburger boats that got perhaps fifty. or fewer, examples out the door before the hungry mob of flashy public opinion passed them by for another, fresher object of desire?

How much money do you think has been invested in the Catri tri tooling compared to the puny outlay for a KA branded foiler? The jump to real money must have you gurgling.
http://www.aegeanmarine.com/

Are you seeing Catri's blast through the Farrier fleets with such numbers that current F-boat owners are dumping their pride and joy for the next big thing? It just ain't happenin', Doug, and you are kidding yourself if you think it will.

I'd like to encourage you to rethink the principals of practical, grass-roots marketing concepts, so a better foundation of understanding can be achieved before your next foray before the critical eye of the educated public.

[foilr]

I don't think the measure of the foiler Moth can be accurately reflected by some poor guys attempt to sell a 3 year old race boat in Australia

You're right. But it does help to form an opinion.

I think anybody in their right mind would think long and hard about spending $12,500AUD on a used boat with any knowledge at all of development in the foiler Moth!

Correct again. Anybody in their right mind would also have to think long and hard about spending $18000 AUD on a new boat with any knowledge at all of development in the foiler Moth.

Spending less on a first-time foiler is a good option for a beginner, helping to limit the financial losses in the upgrade process while the equipment is not the limiting factor in their race performance.

where are all the new boats going

Which new boats are you referring to exactly?
There were 2 prowler 4s at the last Australian Nationals and I believe another launched in Melbourne recently and one for John in Perth. In the last 12 months that makes 6 new Moths (all foilers) launched in Australia. Please advise if I've missed any.

It's hard to see Luka's point or CT's point or Babbage's point when there is so much investment and building going on in a class where they say there is "little interest" in an "unpopular" boat

No. The point is quite simple. Publicity is not directly related to popularity. The current situation appears to support that theory.

The future may be different. I certainly hope so. However we cannot judge a hypothetical future as present fact. Can we?

"Publicity is not directly related to popularity".
Horsemanure! Geez, how do you build interest in a class leading to it's "popularity"?? Keep it quiet?!
But you know what: I could give a rat's ass about the popularity of the Moth class. What I have consistently focused on are the achievements of some in the Moth class-the technical development which has no match in the dinghy sailing world. If you Mothies can't capitilize on the incredible interest in the class so be it. But the pioneers in the class have shown the world what is possible and I absolutely believe that those working to solve some of the problems with the Moth class foiler will be succesfull and develop a Peoples Foiler that will be far easier to sail than a Moth and less expensive. Many people are working on it; a few are likely to succeed.
Not only that but the technical development pioneered in the Moth foiler has led to AT LEAST two full size programs working to adapt the bi-foil monofoiler system to large ballasted keel boats.
The technical achievements of a small group of Moth sailors has started a revolution in sailboat design that will lead to some of the most exciting development ever seen in speed and performance under sail.Popular? maybe not yet-extraordinary?-you betcha!
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"Yes I've sailed one"
And,ah, I'm one of the only people in the world ( that I know of) to have sailed a 16' bi-foil monofoiler- not a Moth but great fun nonetheless.And further proof that the Peoples Foiler is not only possible- it is likely.....

[usa2]

"If you Mothies can't capitilize on the incredible interest in the class so be it. "

First of all, its not interest in the class, its interest in the foilers. The foilers are a minority in the Moth class.

Second of all, "interest" is all it is. Just because someone is interested in something doesnt neccesarily mean they are going to start buying the boats. Especially something as expensive and specialized as a foiler moth. There are millions around the world who are "interested" in offshore sailboat racing, and follow those who do it avidly, yet they often have never been in a sailboat out of sight of land.

"And,ah, I'm one of the only people in the world ( that I know of) to have sailed a 16' bi-foil monofoiler- not a Moth but great fun nonethe less."

You may have sailed it, but it didnt foil, from what we have heard. I am pretty sure foilr has actually gotten the boat up on his foils.

[foilr]

how do you build interest in a class

The Moths, through their prominent sailors and manufacturers, are doing a great job of generating interest.

how do you build interest in a class leading to it's "popularity"??

Congratulations, you've found the question that CT, Chris, Frosh, usa etc have been asking.

The problem is complex. Hype has not brought people in.

KA bringing a stable, available source of boats to market will help significantly.

We still have significant hurdles in terms of cost. In terms of complexity. In terms of difficulty. Ignorance of those hurdles doesn't make them magically disappear.

I could give a rat's ass about the popularity of the Moth class

The Moth class would prefer if you personally didn't give a rat's ass about our popularity. We would prefer if you stopped hyping our boat out of proportion. We would prefer if you used your foiling experience as a basis for your opinions, not ours.

and I absolutely believe that those working to solve some of the problems with the Moth class foiler will be succesfull and develop a Peoples Foiler that will be far easier to sail than a Moth and less expensive.

And I don't agree with you. I would like to see it happen. I don't think it will. What do you think the consensus here is?

Popular? maybe not yet-extraordinary?-you betcha!

Thankyou. I agree there. I've stated at length how incredibly the boats are.

I'm one of the only people in the world ( that I know of) to have sailed a 16' bi-foil monofoiler

Congratulations.

My apologies if I've missed it in other threads, but why haven't you bought a Moth? I would be happy to organise a test sail on one if you're ever in Sydney. I have put my $ on the line and bought 1. 3 actually. I would like to know the reasons why you wouldn't purchase one for yourself.

[Chris Ostlind]

Quote from the Wizened One in the gaudy conical hat,

"Publicity is not directly related to popularity".
Horsemanure! Geez, how do you build interest in a class leading to it's "popularity"?? Keep it quiet?!

How about this for a novel, soundly based approach, Doug? You build the class through substantive advancements that make sense for sailing's sake and not the sake of more rabid fluff from fringe proponents. The boat is developed to be simpler and not more complex. There is a movement supported by connected, investment driven concerns to ensure that the gmmickry is significantly reduced so everyday sailors can see the potential value and not the wall of technology that is so, off-putting. The list goes on, but you see the point, I'm sure.

You can hype a product into the mainstream and then it has to deliver on its hyperbole fluffed promise. Once un-met the promise fades, the product goes home with abundant numbers still on the shelves and the whole thing is viewed as a flop.

If something is really an appropriate move in a particular industry, the product will reveal itself through grass roots word of mouth. Uniquely enough, this approach turns out to be the soundest methodology of all, if you want staying power in the marketplace.

Human driven demand is always hundreds of times more potent than hype driven interest.

The most recent classic example of this is your own attempt to foist upon the sailing world a goof ball hodge-podge of technical apparatus called the aeroSKIFF. When you couldn't interest anyone in tossing down the cash, the appendage cluttered monster wound-up in the garage and it sat there waiting for your promise to crank-out a finished product that would set the world on fire. Now we see it stripped to the bones of ignominy sitting around a windsurf school where it may have a new life as what... a training wheel equipped, used-to-be, Wunderboot?

Mind you, this floating thing was hyped into oblivion with all the hot air one could muster out of Cocoa Beach, Florida... and still it couldn't be lifted from the weight of its own expectational hyperbole. A more pitiful promotional campaign, I have never seen. Classic Coke made more of dent in the conciousness of the public than did the aeroSKIFF and it tasted like... well, it tasted bad and you can guess the rest.

The reason there are so many people with great intellect, jumping in your face is because you fail to see exactly how desperate the hype has become. Since you have virtually nothing to do with the development process at this point, due to bailing on your own wonderful vision, why don't you please let the hype rest for awhile and engage yourself in something that can earn you some money so you can actually build more than a wannabe foiler?

It's the end of the trail for this discussion, Doug. I'm sure we all wait anxiously for your next lucid string of comments. Bow-out gracefully and we'll all think the better of you. GEEZ! I'll even vote to raise your repuation a few notches if you just simply let this whole thing go.