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  #106  
Old 05-09-2012, 07:41 PM
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Originally Posted by ancient kayaker View Post
Oops, that could make another thing for our busy crew to worry about, but hopefully it won't need continual changes. Perhaps it can be adjusted for conditions on the day and left, or possibly it may merely need a one time adjustment to suit an individual hull and rig. I think it should be adjustable; getting it right first time in the design and a first-time build is asking a lot . . .
===============
The advice I've gotten is that once the foil is right no further adjustment is required. I've also come to believe that for a little sit-in boat having the DSS foils plugged in is the way to go-fixed but removable for stowage(DSS-F).
Its also imperative that a small DSS equiped boat have some form of movable ballast-in my opinion. And, finally, I've become convinced that for all this to work well in a sit-in boat the length has to be 14' or over. This after countless hours going over this stuff.....
And if it all comes together it should be the hottest little sit-in monohull sailboat around anywhere!
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  #107  
Old 05-10-2012, 07:39 AM
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Many years ago I rode one of these things and they are quite responsive, but the preformance isn't as good as it feels like it is. It's sort of like driving a 1960's British sports car. A 4 cylinder engine of 80 HP and sitting very low, the sensation of speed is artificially increased. Once along side a real sports car, you suddenly realize how under powered you actually are.

These boats remind me of the 12 meter class of A/C boats, great sensations of speed, but really just pigs, considering what they were, dragging huge quartering waves and hanging lots of rail meat, to make you feel like you're actually going some place.

The novelty of scooting along, in a literal pocket yacht is quaint, but no cooler of beer room, limits my interest as not practical enough to consider. The best thing that could be done with that little thing is make it bigger. It's not hard to have a small boat with sparkling preformance, room for the wife and a cooler full of beer too. You will not be able to stuff it in the back of your station wagon, but a 200 pound boat doesn't need much of a trailer nor much of a car to haul it.
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  #108  
Old 05-10-2012, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PAR View Post
Many years ago I rode one of these things and they are quite responsive, but the preformance isn't as good as it feels like it is. It's sort of like driving a 1960's British sports car. A 4 cylinder engine of 80 HP and sitting very low, the sensation of speed is artificially increased. Once along side a real sports car, you suddenly realize how under powered you actually are.

These boats remind me of the 12 meter class of A/C boats, great sensations of speed, but really just pigs, considering what they were, dragging huge quartering waves and hanging lots of rail meat, to make you feel like you're actually going some place.

The novelty of scooting along, in a literal pocket yacht is quaint, but no cooler of beer room, limits my interest as not practical enough to consider. The best thing that could be done with that little thing is make it bigger. It's not hard to have a small boat with sparkling preformance, room for the wife and a cooler full of beer too. You will not be able to stuff it in the back of your station wagon, but a 200 pound boat doesn't need much of a trailer nor much of a car to haul it.
=====================
Well, Paul those are my conclusions exactly. In order to have the performance I'm looking for in a "sit-in"(not on) boat it has to be at least 14' LOA. At that length the numbers add up and using things like fixed DSS and the sliding ballast wing(for experimental purposes) the power to carry sail is greatly enhanced. At least, a little singlehanded performance "techno" boat suits me just fine. And it would be quite a performance increase(if it all works) over a 2.4 meter or any other current "sit-in" singlehander that I know of. It's always struck me that it's a shame that disabled people would have to be relegated to slugs(but fun to sail,I hear) like the 2.4 meter when, I believe there may be a better way....
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  #109  
Old 05-10-2012, 12:06 PM
CutOnce CutOnce is offline
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The thread topic is "Minuet Yachts: a 2m fun boat-can the design be improved?".

This thread has pretty much devolved into a blue sky discussion about something else completely (high performance maximum expense experimental tiny boats perhaps), than improving the design of the Minuet. The Minuet design is pretty good - and it doesn't pretend to be anything other than what it was intended to be.

In answer to the thread topic, I doubt the design of the Minuet can be improved dramatically while remaining a Minuet.

In response to the bizarre concept of "rep points" a better metric is to divide a member's rep points by the number of posts made to see what accolades people get per comment made. This provides marginally better insight into how the community values someone's contributions.

Personally, I place no value on rep points as forum reputation is meaningless when it come to accurately measuring knowledge, experience, professional accreditation and work product. Some of the most curmudgeonly, inhospitable and antagonistic members here have rep points values far lower than their knowledge deserves, as they aren't popular, sycophantic or even civil to those that they hold in contempt. People may not "like" Apex1 or Paul B, but I have no doubts they know of what they write.

If I were re-rigging a keel boat, especially if I was trying to re-use existing parts I'd place enormous value on Paul B's thoughts - and he's currently got negative rep points for the crime of calling things as he sees them without sugar coating or consideration for Miss Manner's behaviour. Read his posts - and then make your own value judgement.

I was privileged to grow up surrounded by snarly, impatient, frighteningly knowledgeable curmudgeons - and quickly learned to filter out personal nonsense from the priceless knowledge.

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  #110  
Old 05-10-2012, 02:57 PM
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By improving the design of the Minuet, things like a self-bailing cockpit, more RM etc are things I was considering when I started the thread. The concept of a small "sit-in" boat is very appealing to me and the Minuet is a great little boat. But where I sail it would be impractical, very wet and very slow. I talked to a friend about it and we agreed that improvement would result from a drier boat, a boat capable of handling waves and heavier conditions, a boat that would be faster on all points of sail, a boat with a spinnaker and a boat still small enough to be easily handled singlehanded even with the performance enhancing features we both liked -the asy spin, DSS, A-Class Cat wing mast section and movable ballast. We agreed that we wanted a boat that would plane without the crew having to move athwartship. The result of a lot of design work is a 14+ footer with 115 sq.ft. of upwind SA and 235sq.ft of downwind sailarea. The boat would use a sliding movable ballast system, DSS-F(fixed,removable) foils, gybing daggerboard and Dotan kick-up rudder. And he and I consider that to be an improvement on the design of the Minuet for our specific purposes.....
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  #111  
Old 05-10-2012, 08:08 PM
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Cut, you receive 2.2 points for each of your posts, I receive just a smidgen over 3 per post. Doug gets about 6 points per post, so he must be at least twice as good as me. Paul B. has earned every single point he doesn't currently have. He's had more points than you Cut, but not having common sensibilities, lost literally of of them. There's no doubt of his expertise, but it's worthless if it can't be conveyed without the troubles he typically finds himself in. No one pays attention to a jerk, regardless of their skill sets. Richard has (had) a completely different story and one I fully understand and commiserate with.
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  #112  
Old 05-10-2012, 09:15 PM
P Flados P Flados is offline
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Par,

Your comments make sense, but your math does not. A simple inversion of units (post per rep vs. rep per post) makes it all better.

CutOnce has 205/454 = 0.45 rep per post, or 2.2 post per rep.
You have 3091/9284 = 0.33 rep per post, or 3 post per rep.

The value we add is probably not well measured by our "Rep", but I agree that "common sensibilities" do indeed matter.

Those with true knowledge and willingness to help, can provide much value. However, with wisdom one understands that how a person responds also matters. I have only a minuscule fraction of applicable experience as many here. However, I note that many with experience, choose to respond with less wisdom than they could.

For this thread, I agree that it is interesting but probably silly. The very small sit inside boat is not really about absolute performance. They play within a specific set of rules & seem to have fun. Sounds OK to me.

If you want "throw it in you car" small & real performance, we should be talking about how to adapt what windsurfer can do into a small boat with decent righting moment, or how to figure out how to use moth as a starting point to make a cheaper & easier foiler (Yes Doug, I am sure it is possible, but the cheaper part is important too).
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  #113  
Old 05-11-2012, 01:06 AM
CutOnce CutOnce is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by P Flados View Post
The value we add is probably not well measured by our "Rep", but I agree that "common sensibilities" do indeed matter.
My point exactly - forum "Rep" here does not reflect the real world value of a poster. "Plays nice with others" isn't particularly important to me - as long as their contribution helps people avoid mistakes and learn. I'd much rather deal with a difficult personality that provided me with sage advice than a polite person who offered recommendations on topics they do not completely understand.

In my view, someone like PAR should far exceed me by any reputation metric. Thanks to Mr. Flados for delicately avoiding clarification on PAR's atypical math error.

Getting back on topic, I really had hoped for a discussion about the Minuet displacement design. I thought the concept of placing much crew weight below the waterline was unique. I thought designing a boat around the premise that crew weight/ballast was disproportionately higher than hull weight was interesting. Packing these unusual ideas together in a tiny, lightweight package for singlehanding is remarkable.

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  #114  
Old 05-11-2012, 06:24 AM
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  #115  
Old 05-11-2012, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CutOnce View Post
My point exactly - forum "Rep" here does not reflect the real world value of a poster. "Plays nice with others" isn't particularly important to me - as long as their contribution helps people avoid mistakes and learn. I'd much rather deal with a difficult personality that provided me with sage advice than a polite person who offered recommendations on topics they do not completely understand.

In my view, someone like PAR should far exceed me by any reputation metric. Thanks to Mr. Flados for delicately avoiding clarification on PAR's atypical math error.

Getting back on topic, I really had hoped for a discussion about the Minuet displacement design. I thought the concept of placing much crew weight below the waterline was unique. I thought designing a boat around the premise that crew weight/ballast was disproportionately higher than hull weight was interesting. Packing these unusual ideas together in a tiny, lightweight package for singlehanding is remarkable.--
CutOnce
============
Nothing is stopping a discussion along those lines except the willingness to begin it and/or the willingness to look at the Minuet design in detail.
Many modern dinghies have crew weight way in excess of hull weight-the unique part of the Minuet is that it is a displacement design with a crew weight/hull weight of 2.65/1 compared to the planing Windmill,1.45/1; Moth,2.65/1; Laser, about 1.16/1. That makes it very interesting from a design standpoint. It also limits the ability to go larger without having to increase ballast.
-----
Minuet specs:
Length: 2.2 m / 7.2'

Beam: 0.95 m / 3.1'

Hull Weight 30 kg / 66lb

Sail Area 2.96 sq m / 32 sq.ft.
==================
Illusion specs from wikipedia-(different that others I've seen)

Specifications
Material GRP
Number of crew 1
LOA 3.70 m (12 ft)
LWL 3.23 m (10 ft 6 in)
Draft .69 m (27 in)
Beam .85 m (33 in)
Gross displacement 320 kg (710 lb)
(including skipper’s weight)
Ballast 160 kg (350 lb)
(variable, depending on skipper’s weight)
Sail area: main + jib 3.4 m2 (37 sq ft)
Sail area: spinnaker 4.5 m2 (48 sq ft)
=============
International 2.4 meter Specifications(specs nominal-boats designed to a rule)

Crew 1
LOA 4.16 m (13 ft 8 in) (Mark III)
Beam 0.805 m (2 ft 7.7 in)
Draft 1 m (3 ft 3 in) (Mark III)
Hull weight 260 kg (570 lb)
Mast height 4.65 m (15.3 ft)
Main & Jib area 7.5 m2 (81 sq ft) (Mark III)
Paralympics Class
=================
Pictures, L to R: 1) Illusion, 2) 2.4 meter, 3) Minuet

click on image:
Attached Thumbnails
Minuet Yachts: a 2m fun boat-can the design be improved?-illusion-mini-12.jpg  Minuet Yachts: a 2m fun boat-can the design be improved?-international-2.4-meter.jpg  Minuet Yachts: a 2m fun boat-can the design be improved?-minuet.jpg  

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  #116  
Old 05-11-2012, 10:08 PM
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Minuet variations from NZ or AU

Interesting concepts posted on rc groups:

Click on image:
Attached Thumbnails
Minuet Yachts: a 2m fun boat-can the design be improved?-minuet-refined.jpg  Minuet Yachts: a 2m fun boat-can the design be improved?-minuet-refined-2.jpg  Minuet Yachts: a 2m fun boat-can the design be improved?-minuet-refined-rc-groups-micro-sailer-2-.gif  

Minuet Yachts: a 2m fun boat-can the design be improved?-minuet-refined-rc-groups-micro-sailer-.gif  Minuet Yachts: a 2m fun boat-can the design be improved?-minuet-refined-rc-groups-micro-sailer-3.gif  
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  #117  
Old 05-11-2012, 11:12 PM
Submarine Tom Submarine Tom is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Lord View Post
Interesting concepts posted on rc groups:

Click on image:
Couldn't find it Doug.

Where is it...?
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  #118  
Old 05-11-2012, 11:38 PM
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Sorry, Tom I can't find it again! I was googling the boats above and ran across some posts by "micro sailer" on rc groups-doesn't come up when I look specifically for it-at least now..... He was a guy whose real name I can't remember who was interested in building a fullsize(not rc) improved version of the Minuet.
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  #119  
Old 05-14-2012, 04:05 PM
Submarine Tom Submarine Tom is offline
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No problem Doug.

Let me know if it turns up.
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  #120  
Old 05-17-2012, 06:05 PM
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I've watched the Minuet video and am quite tempted to try to put something quick together as a proof of concept. Please excuse my incorrect terminology.

My thought is to use a vertical plywood frame on centerline running from bow to stern and a bulkhead to support the mast, shrouds, daggerboard and rudder. The rest of the hull structure would be from blue or pink foam, the deck likely from thin ply. It would basically be a blown up version of the way I was building competitive "Footy" rc boats some years back. The foam is a quick cheap way to try some hull forms. At the same time you maximize your reserve buoyancy. If a hull form shows promise I can add a skin for durability. I envision a simple spar (windsurfer mast or even smaller) and small low stretch lines for stays.

My basic premises are these.

1) It will be a displacement boat.
2) I want the crew to provide the lion's share of the ballast so they will sit as much as possible below the waterline.
3) ???

I'd love to hear suggestions on length, beam, rocker, hull shape etc to provide the best ability to carry sail. Let me know what other suggestions you may have.

My most successful Footy's were plumb stem, plumb stern double enders with little rocker forward and more aft. The stations were nearly U shaped with vertical sides and round bottom section. The width to length varied from 4.5/1 down to 7.5/1. The skinnier boats tended to be the fastest. Here are some photos.





I'm almost completely ignorant on hull design so having a submerged stern may have been a huge mistake. Also these boats had long keels with lots of lead on the bottom so the section could be completely wrong for the new project, which I hope to have little lead in.

Thanks in advance for any guidance.

I ultimately want to build two and do some match racing.
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