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  #31  
Old 12-18-2016, 12:47 PM
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Doug Lord Doug Lord is offline
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Arkema

No info on the wingsail-sorry.
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  #32  
Old 12-18-2016, 04:40 PM
CT249 CT249 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by myszek View Post
With 6.5m total beam, a heeling/righting moment is not an issue at all. You can balance all the hedrodynamic and aerodynamic forces and moments, if only the rig is not too tall. You don't need a wide hull, nor a swinging keel.

You also needn't restrict yourself to foil-assisted boats, the hull flying is quite possible. The 11m high mast and 100m^2 of canvas is not reasonable, but the aerodynamic drag reduction will be meaningful.

The light weight is crucial for the hull-flying foilers. Narrow hull allows to save some weight, but the ballast should not be too heave as well. The large angle stability restriction links the mast height with the ballast mass, so again, the mast shouldn't be too high.

As a result, instead of a 3m wide hull built of hi-tech materials, 400kg swinging keel and 11m carbon mast, you have, say, 1.5m wide hull, 200kg fixed keel and 8m carbon mast. Plus foils, of course.
What will be more expensive and complicated? I am not sure...

***

Doug, have you more information about the Arkema's wingsail? This is the most interesting point of the design.

regards

krzys
Won't the use of foils be used to further increase stability (in the same way as the scow shape, wide beam and canting keel were) and therefore increase the loadings and put even more emphasis on a rig that develops extra power? Coupled with the fact that foilers seem to put an even greater emphasis on reducing weight, it sounds like it may be a recipe for greatly increased budgets.

The skinny Welbourne designed DSS foiler seemed to be a more promising package from the point of view of accessibility and reduced budgets.

Given the experience of other foilers and classes of similar speed, where high righting moment is crucial, it would appear odd if a canting keel wasn't used. Nor does there seem to be any move in other foilers to reduce mast height.
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  #33  
Old 12-18-2016, 04:52 PM
CT249 CT249 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyak View Post
This rule conversation is interesting -I didn't think there was any change in what's legal. Then I just saw this story

http://www.yachtingworld.com/yachts-.../102174-102174

This looks to me to be exactly the technology flow to production you look for from a development class.

I will post more later but for now I just want to scoop Doug L. on a major foiler program.
The inference in the Y&Y piece is that the fact that Beneteau have gone for a foiler means that foiling is now bound for the mainstream. One may point out that the idea that Beneteau's racing boats are a pointer to the future of mainstream sailing was demonstrated to be incorrect by the 30, 30 E, Figaro Solo 1 and others. These boats were all racing "specials" aimed by Beneteau at market sectors that never made it to the mainstream (apart from the 30, which was to a style of design that was soon replaced). Beneteau's success rate at picking new racing concepts that will make it in the mainstream is arguably not particularly high.
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  #34  
Old 12-18-2016, 05:01 PM
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Doug Lord Doug Lord is offline
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Jive plus Rules

The new Beneteau is not designed to be a "foiler". It's odd foils only develop lateral resistance-not vertical lift. I think that this is their way to attempt to cash in on the foiler craze without actually having a boat that foils-and to avoid paying a royalty to Dynamic Stability Systems.
From Yachting World:
"These novel looking foils are designed to replace the traditional weighty ballast tanks used on past Figaro models. Described as ‘asymmetric tip foils’ they work by creating side force to supplement the skinny keel and reduce leeway while causing minimal drag. An important factor is also that they are able to retract within the boat’s maximum beam."

"The foils are not designed to lift the boat out of the water"

--
I think the change in Mini rules is a brilliant update to keep the "Proto" state of the art-it will produce some extraordinary boats.
I think Hugh Welbourn's first DSS Mini could be interesting but I'm afraid its time is past with the rule change and his new boat, done to the modified rules, is likely to make a much greater impression with the Q23 "Flying DSS" foils :

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  #35  
Old 12-19-2016, 12:14 PM
Skyak Skyak is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CT249 View Post
The inference in the Y&Y piece is that the fact that Beneteau have gone for a foiler means that foiling is now bound for the mainstream. One may point out that the idea that Beneteau's racing boats are a pointer to the future of mainstream sailing was demonstrated to be incorrect by the 30, 30 E, Figaro Solo 1 and others. These boats were all racing "specials" aimed by Beneteau at market sectors that never made it to the mainstream (apart from the 30, which was to a style of design that was soon replaced). Beneteau's success rate at picking new racing concepts that will make it in the mainstream is arguably not particularly high.
CT,
the way I see it, a major mainstream sailboat producer -arguably THE big mainstream sailboat producer is offering a foil assist boat. It's a class of their creation, and it is more about gauging customer experience than making money. Your view that Benetau has a poor record of directing mainstream sailing with these developments is just misinterpretation to support your argument -like pointing to designers of women's shoes and calling them idiots for making shoes that they can't walk in that are priced 100X what a decent shoe costs. Benetau as a corporation needs fast, new interesting boats for marketing and technology. Will it be influential on the future of sailboats? "Maybe" is the answer, and maybe is all it needs to be for their corporate purpose.

A foil assist boat designed by VPLP will be produced by Benetau -that is a milestone. My view is that it will compare favorably to canting keels and water ballast.

Doug L. you need to read up on "Design Failure Mode Effects Analysis" and consider the full effect of the foil angles. Having the foil reach over the top, above the water line makes total loss a fail-safe condition. On a healing boat DSS has a negative contribution in the vertical plane -which results in drag.

Myszek, wings tend to be more significant for their inclusion. Their designs are quite similar. The most significant attribute of Arkema is the composite material being a recyclable thermoplastic. Real success will be demonstrated by the products made when the boat is ground up and molded again.
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  #36  
Old 12-19-2016, 12:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyak View Post

A foil assist boat designed by VPLP will be produced by Benetau -that is a milestone. My view is that it will compare favorably to canting keels and water ballast.

Doug L. you need to read up on "Design Failure Mode Effects Analysis" and consider the full effect of the foil angles. Having the foil reach over the top, above the water line makes total loss a fail-safe condition. On a healing boat DSS has a negative contribution in the vertical plane -which results in drag.

=====================================
"Foil Assist" generally means a foil designed to lift some percentage of the boats weight. The Beny doesn't do this-or very little.

Most DSS boats are designed to heel to one degree or another. The biggest exception I've seen is CQS designed with a straight foil parallel to the water when the boat is level. However, their foils also have flaps-which is another first for DSS.
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  #37  
Old 12-19-2016, 04:27 PM
CT249 CT249 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyak View Post
CT,
the way I see it, a major mainstream sailboat producer -arguably THE big mainstream sailboat producer is offering a foil assist boat. It's a class of their creation, and it is more about gauging customer experience than making money. Your view that Benetau has a poor record of directing mainstream sailing with these developments is just misinterpretation to support your argument -like pointing to designers of women's shoes and calling them idiots for making shoes that they can't walk in that are priced 100X what a decent shoe costs. Benetau as a corporation needs fast, new interesting boats for marketing and technology. Will it be influential on the future of sailboats? "Maybe" is the answer, and maybe is all it needs to be for their corporate purpose.

A foil assist boat designed by VPLP will be produced by Benetau -that is a milestone. My view is that it will compare favorably to canting keels and water ballast.

Doug L. you need to read up on "Design Failure Mode Effects Analysis" and consider the full effect of the foil angles. Having the foil reach over the top, above the water line makes total loss a fail-safe condition. On a healing boat DSS has a negative contribution in the vertical plane -which results in drag.

Myszek, wings tend to be more significant for their inclusion. Their designs are quite similar. The most significant attribute of Arkema is the composite material being a recyclable thermoplastic. Real success will be demonstrated by the products made when the boat is ground up and molded again.
Skyak, I didn't say that Beneteau are trying to direct mainstream sailing, so please don't say I did. Yes, I understand the reasons behind many of the "racing specials" Beneteau have produced and I have since I first dealt with Beneteau's marketing people in the 1980s.

None of that does anything to undermine the point that Beneteau's track record indicates that their "racing specials" are often NOT a predictor of the way the mainstream market is going, as the Y&Y article may be seen to imply. As examples, the mainstream sailing world did not turn towards medium/heavy masthead rigged narrow-sterned half tonners after Beneteau produced the "racing special" First 30 at the end of the '70s, nor towards light fractional racing machines after they produced the one and half tonners of '81 and '84. The marinas of the world were not clogged with twin side-by-side cabins after Beneteau did the "racing special" Corum in 1987 (IIRC). Nor did the mainstream sailing world turn towards water ballasted singlehanders after Beneteau produced the Figaro Solo in 1989.

This is not misinterpreting anything. This is looking at what really happened.

Given this track record and the fact that that there is no reason to think that Beneteau are trying to "direct mainstream sailing" or even that they are trying to predict its direction, the Y&Y claim therefore appears to be over-shooting the mark.
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  #38  
Old 02-03-2017, 02:59 PM
Konstanty Konstanty is offline
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How does it fit in the rules of mini 650 transat ?

How does fit this monohul proa in the rules of mini 650 transat class? That is the question.
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Mini rules revolution?-juross33-1.jpg  Mini rules revolution?-juross33-2.jpg  Mini rules revolution?-juross33-3.jpg  

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Last edited by Konstanty : 02-07-2017 at 04:44 AM.
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