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  #16  
Old 12-15-2016, 06:15 AM
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myszek myszek is offline
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Originally Posted by CT249 View Post
Why are you glad that the fleet may now have no competitive boats?

Why are you glad that all the people who currently own boats may find them worthless?
First, I just don't like the current Minis with their brute force principle - much canvas, much hull width.
Next, the innovations aways were an inherent part od the Mini idea. Up to now, nobody knows, how to build an ocean-going foiler. Now the answer is going to be found.

At least, don't worry. It's not easy to compete with the well-tested, conventional designs. They will be competitive for a long time. See the Moth history - it took several years for the foiling Moths to become a standard, and the older designs are still in use.

regards

krzys
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  #17  
Old 12-15-2016, 07:38 AM
Konstanty Konstanty is offline
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Originally Posted by myszek View Post
There can be a problem with the escape hatch, that has explicitely has to be fitted on the transom. Where to place it in the double-ended hull?

regards

krzys
The monohull's proa's as a stern could be considered weather board.
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  #18  
Old 12-15-2016, 02:13 PM
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Corley Corley is offline
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I thought the intention of Mini's was to attempt to at least keep some check on costs and make ocean racing more accessible to a wider group of sailors. If they go down this route it will be anything but an affordable class. I gather this change is just for the proto class segment of the Mini's?
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  #19  
Old 12-15-2016, 02:31 PM
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Doug Lord Doug Lord is offline
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Mini Proto

I think the Mini Protos have always been a state of the art development class. I think its great that they have made changes that allow the Class to maintain that edge in light of the new developments in the state of the art.

Arkema:

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  #20  
Old 12-15-2016, 05:30 PM
CT249 CT249 is offline
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Looking at the Mini class rules and AGM minutes, it's apparent that the class is supposed to advance design and provide economical sailing - a bit of a tall order and rather contradictory.

It does worry me that so many classes, and so much of sailing, still appear to be charging blindly down the route of further complexity. The sport is much less popular now than when boats were slower and simpler. National championship attendance in the USA dropped 9% or so over the last three years. British national championship attendance has dropped 25% over the last five years.

The sport is currently in serious trouble, and it's occurred during the era when many people have been screeching that hyper-performance boats were the future. Given the very small number of such classes that have been purchased or raced, it's apparent that the claims that the new wave of hyper-performance craft would help sailing's popularity were very wrong. Sending yet another class down that path may not be a good thing.

It's interesting to see that the Transquadra double/singlehanded race, which is run under IRC, is now more popular than the Mini event, and in some local French shorthanded races more people are racing shorthanded under IRC than in the "Open" and "Mini" type boats. The races are very different, but the difference in the profile of the events may show that there's a huge difference these days between the bullcrap that the keyboard hypesters are spinning, and what the owners and sailors are doing in reality.

When sailing was growing, most of the opinion leaders (such as sailing journalists like Jack Knights, Bob Ross, Bernard Hayman, John Mallitte, etc) seem to have owned the boats they promoted. These days, the screeching is being done by people sitting on the sidelines (like Clean and others) who tell other people what they should be sailing and how to spend their money. It seems to have caused a major case of blindness about the reality of sailboat racing among the would-be opinion leaders. The funny thing is that some of those who tell other people they should get into the hyper-performance classes either don't sail much, or sail older and more conservative boats.
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  #21  
Old 12-15-2016, 05:33 PM
CT249 CT249 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by myszek View Post
First, I just don't like the current Minis with their brute force principle - much canvas, much hull width.
Next, the innovations aways were an inherent part od the Mini idea. Up to now, nobody knows, how to build an ocean-going foiler. Now the answer is going to be found.

At least, don't worry. It's not easy to compete with the well-tested, conventional designs. They will be competitive for a long time. See the Moth history - it took several years for the foiling Moths to become a standard, and the older designs are still in use.

regards

krzys
Fair point about the Mini's history of leading development (and such small boats are a good place to develop ideas) but it's also supposed to be a cheap class. It's hard to see foilers being cheap, given the loadings on the foils alone.

It's also a fair point about the problems of the brute force mini, but don't the 60s indicate that the foilers have just as much (or more) brute force due to the increased righting moment?

There are very, very few older Moths still racing competitively, and the history of many other classes shows that obsolescence can really hurt fleet size.
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  #22  
Old 12-15-2016, 05:37 PM
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Doug Lord Doug Lord is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CT249 View Post
Looking at the Mini class rules and AGM minutes, it's apparent that the class is supposed to advance design and provide economical sailing - a bit of a tall order and rather contradictory.

It does worry me that so many classes, and so much of sailing, still appear to be charging blindly down the route of further complexity. The sport is much less popular now than when boats were slower and simpler. National championship attendance in the USA dropped 9% or so over the last three years. British national championship attendance has dropped 25% over the last five years.

Some people said that the new wave of hyper-performance craft would help sailing's popularity. It is obvious that they were wrong.
====================
No, it's not.
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  #23  
Old 12-15-2016, 05:58 PM
CT249 CT249 is offline
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Major indicators of the popularity of the sport have shown drops of 9-25% over the period in which hyper-performance craft have been moved back into the Olympics, taken over the AC and match racing worlds, smashed the speed record, etc. If the hyper-performance craft are going to increase the sport's popularity, why are there so few of them and why is the sport shrinking since they become so prominent?

What EVIDENCE BASED line of reasoning leads to the conclusion that promoting the hyper-performance craft will improve or even maintain the popularity of the sport. Please note that by "evidence based" I do not mean lame one-liners, rhetoric or using red fonts, but objective evidence gathered from independent sources such as market surveys, historical studies, cross-sport analysis, academic works on the psychology and sociology of sports, and even works by sports philosophers.

Actual objective investigation of the above do not lead to the conclusion that concentrating the promoting of the sport around the hyper-performance craft will do anything to improve the sport's popularity. Analysis of the reality of current trends in the sport also indicate the same conclusion.

If the hyper-performance craft are so great, why don't you sail one regularly? You came from an affluent background, I believe you are single so you don't have to run kids around to sport on the weekend like many adults do, you apparently live near the water in an excellent sailing location, you are a lifelong sailor and a passionate advocate of such craft - so why don't you sail one?

Yes, you may have had health issues or something - but everyone has some issues that could prevent them from sailing, such as kid's soccer, a demanding career, or living in a less than idea spot. A type of boat that is truly popular is one that people can sail even when they have some issues like we all have. You've been in an excellent position to go out and get afloat in one of the recent hyper-performance boats or to buy one. If they are so much fun, why don't you sail them yourself?
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  #24  
Old 12-15-2016, 06:06 PM
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Doug Lord Doug Lord is offline
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Over the last 5-10 years there were a lot of other factors more likely to have affected turnout. Blaming low turnout on high performance boats in and of themselves seems ridiculous to me.
Sounds like you're winding up to another one of your sermons on the evils of high performance sailing. Since this is a thread by people who enjoy discussing the design of high performance boats why don't you start another one of your dizzying sermon/ threads to lecture those that really care?
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  #25  
Old 12-15-2016, 06:15 PM
CT249 CT249 is offline
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Well, Doug, let's do a deal.

You stop your repeated posts and sermonising about foilers, and I'll stop sermonising about the issues about excessive promotion of hyper-performance boats. Deal?

By the way, I also enjoy discussing the design of high performance craft. One big difference, though, is that I also sail and own them.
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  #26  
Old 12-15-2016, 07:08 PM
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My last off topic post on this thread. My apologies.

Thats not a big difference at all-I've sailed and raced high performance boats all my life and I still do every chance I get. But I've designed and built dozens of boats with two of my full size production boats selling 300+. Not to mention over 50 rc models that include the first production rc sailing foiler in history and two different rc spinnaker boats that were the first of their type ever. And now the Fire Arrow which is the first trimaran in history of any size to use UptiP ama foils and a wand controlled main foil. And the WOLF may be next.
---
I don't sermonize about foilers like you sermonize against them and have for years. I speak with enthusiasm mostly to help make people aware of the fantastic new developments occurring from windsurfers to 100'+ raceboats, including multihulls, dinghies and keelboats. Your sermons are mostly negative- with a dark tone speaking of dire consequences if the people should adopt these new technologies like you did about the Moth class(and were so wrong about).
---
Just start another thread rather than continuing to be off topic on this one.
I'm sure hundreds of your followers will join you there.....
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  #27  
Old 12-15-2016, 08:03 PM
CT249 CT249 is offline
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It's a thread about rules in a development class. Posts about rules in development classes could not be more on topic.
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  #28  
Old 12-16-2016, 12:07 PM
motorbike motorbike is offline
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I came to read about rules but I've been foiled again, (as usual)
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  #29  
Old 12-16-2016, 08:42 PM
Skyak Skyak is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CT249 View Post
Major indicators of the popularity of the sport have shown drops of 9-25% over the period in which hyper-performance craft have been moved back into the Olympics, taken over the AC and match racing worlds, smashed the speed record, etc. If the hyper-performance craft are going to increase the sport's popularity, why are there so few of them and why is the sport shrinking since they become so prominent?

What EVIDENCE BASED line of reasoning leads to the conclusion that promoting the hyper-performance craft will improve or even maintain the popularity of the sport. Please note that by "evidence based" I do not mean lame one-liners, rhetoric or using red fonts, but objective evidence gathered from independent sources such as market surveys, historical studies, cross-sport analysis, academic works on the psychology and sociology of sports, and even works by sports philosophers.

Actual objective investigation of the above do not lead to the conclusion that concentrating the promoting of the sport around the hyper-performance craft will do anything to improve the sport's popularity. Analysis of the reality of current trends in the sport also indicate the same conclusion.

If the hyper-performance craft are so great, why don't you sail one regularly? You came from an affluent background, I believe you are single so you don't have to run kids around to sport on the weekend like many adults do, you apparently live near the water in an excellent sailing location, you are a lifelong sailor and a passionate advocate of such craft - so why don't you sail one?

Yes, you may have had health issues or something - but everyone has some issues that could prevent them from sailing, such as kid's soccer, a demanding career, or living in a less than idea spot. A type of boat that is truly popular is one that people can sail even when they have some issues like we all have. You've been in an excellent position to go out and get afloat in one of the recent hyper-performance boats or to buy one. If they are so much fun, why don't you sail them yourself?
This rule conversation is interesting -I didn't think there was any change in what's legal. Then I just saw this story

http://www.yachtingworld.com/yachts-.../102174-102174

This looks to me to be exactly the technology flow to production you look for from a development class.

I will post more later but for now I just want to scoop Doug L. on a major foiler program.
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  #30  
Old 12-18-2016, 12:15 PM
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myszek myszek is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CT249 View Post
It's also a fair point about the problems of the brute force mini, but don't the 60s indicate that the foilers have just as much (or more) brute force due to the increased righting moment?
With 6.5m total beam, a heeling/righting moment is not an issue at all. You can balance all the hedrodynamic and aerodynamic forces and moments, if only the rig is not too tall. You don't need a wide hull, nor a swinging keel.

You also needn't restrict yourself to foil-assisted boats, the hull flying is quite possible. The 11m high mast and 100m^2 of canvas is not reasonable, but the aerodynamic drag reduction will be meaningful.

The light weight is crucial for the hull-flying foilers. Narrow hull allows to save some weight, but the ballast should not be too heave as well. The large angle stability restriction links the mast height with the ballast mass, so again, the mast shouldn't be too high.

As a result, instead of a 3m wide hull built of hi-tech materials, 400kg swinging keel and 11m carbon mast, you have, say, 1.5m wide hull, 200kg fixed keel and 8m carbon mast. Plus foils, of course.
What will be more expensive and complicated? I am not sure...

***

Doug, have you more information about the Arkema's wingsail? This is the most interesting point of the design.

regards

krzys
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