Maltese Falcon ... hit or miss?

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by Stephen Ditmore, Jun 29, 2006.

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Maltese Falcon, hit or miss?

Poll closed Jun 29, 2007.
  1. A triumph!

    35 vote(s)
    33.7%
  2. Interesting

    58 vote(s)
    55.8%
  3. Uninteresting

    4 vote(s)
    3.8%
  4. A truly stupid concept and a complete waste of time

    7 vote(s)
    6.7%
  1. Brian@BNE
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    Brian@BNE Senior Member

    I'd like to see the dyna-rig concept tested on a boat that was actually designed as a sailboat. I don't think MF does justice to the rig, and MF's mediocre performance is likely to be an impediment for future testing and development of dyna-rigs.

    Hats off to Perini Navi and all involved for achieving as much as they did, but lets face it: they just financially salvaged a rusting hull with a lot of someone else's money.
     
  2. ancient kayaker
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    ancient kayaker aka Terry Haines

    Wanna try it but ...

    I was planning to try out a dynarig sail but then I thought about tacking the thing. Unless sail is taken in, there seems to be no way to tack a square rigger without backing the sails. That sounds risky on a big boat, and it would likely stop a small boat dead in the water. Anyone have any info how the MF manages a change of tack, or does it wear ship under sail, or maybe they just start up the motors and furl before tacking?
     
  3. brian eiland
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    brian eiland Senior Member

    From posting #79;
    "Just a quick note from East of the Azores. I'm happy to report that the Falcon has just broken the Cutty Sark's best 24-hour run. The Cutty did 362 nautical miles and we've done 380. I believe the Cutty's record has never been broken by a square rigger . . . until today. The wind's averaged about 27 knots and the forecast is for slightly stronger winds into Gibraltar, so we'll be shooting to break 400 miles tomorrow."

    It's an interesting contrast that the Cutty required a crew of nearly 30 men while Falcon can be sailed at the push of a few buttons by just one man."


    Doesn't sound that 'mediocre' to me :rolleyes:
     
  4. ancient kayaker
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    ancient kayaker aka Terry Haines

    The Cutty Sark was launched in November 1869 and made her maiden voyage to China early in 1870. In her first voyage she made 360 nm in 24 hours, but overall it wasn't a fast run. Later her sail area ws reduced and she went faster! She really showed her worth later making the Australia wool run in 80 days. Cap't Richard Woodget joined her in 1885 when she was refurbished and rerigged, and knocked 2 days off the England-Australia record despite contrary winds, later gaining a further 3 days despite a knock-down and a close encounter with ice. On occasion Woodget and the Cutty even beat steamers to port. But she had had her day by 1895 when she was sold and used as a training ship. Her closest competitior, the Thermopylae, was scuttled in 1907, almost 40 years after she was launched, a remarkably long life for this class of ship.

    The Cutty can be seen at her dry dock in Geenich. Fire damage repairs are still in progress, I believe.

    Her name is a story in itself: check google for the story of Tam o'Shanter. Her sailing records stood for a long time!
     
  5. LyndonJ
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    LyndonJ Senior Member

    Not a good comparison really. Those 30 men were divided into the watches and they replace the hydraulic motors, power winches auto steering and all the other conveniences of modern tech.

    How many men would the MF take to sail if you removed all this ? Probably more.

    And articles I read say that they have to have a rigger aloft and his support team nearly all the time they are sailing becasue the rig is troublesome.

    Not quite one man and the push of a button.
     
  6. brian eiland
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    brian eiland Senior Member

    Tacking Question


    QUESTION:

    Can you describe the 'tack' maneuver in more detail?

    Which way are you rotating the mast? all together?

    I believe I have seen a reference to the masts being able to rotate 360 degrees and another indicating only 180 degrees??

    ANSWER: from chief engineer
    Tacking the 'Big Bird'

    The masts all rotate 180 degrees, +/- 90 degrees from amidships, they could go continuously round and round except for the need to have electrical cables to power and control the sails and lights.
    The fore is an exception as it can be 'overrotated' approximately 10 degrees each side to allow us to pick up the port tender and launch on stb side and vice versa.

    The sequence for tacking is that we come 'off' the wind a bit to get boat speed up, then start start the tack, turning the bow through the wind.
    We hold the fore mast, effectively backing the sail, then as soon as the bow is head to wind we rotate the main and mizzen masts through the wind until they are full and drawing, then we complete the tack by rotating the fore mast to its new postion, and off we go. It can be a bit slow and we always lose boat speed but have never been 'in irons' and rarely use any 'help' from the engines. sometimes we have one running 'just in case' but we pride ourselves on not using it unless absolutely neccessary.

    http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/36088-post164.html
     
  7. brian eiland
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    brian eiland Senior Member

    So I guess you want to go back to the really big crews it took to sail a J-boat

    Technology marches on, and hopefully it requires less manpower for MANY of our modern day task.

    I believe you are referring to the early days of sailing this new machine. I believe if you read back thru some of their later logs you will find much less of this 'tending', and accounts of very little trouble once the bugs were worked out.
     
  8. ancient kayaker
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    ancient kayaker aka Terry Haines



    Thank you for that explanation.

    As I suspect a sail is backed. It's interesting to note that, with multiple masts the foresail seems to be used to blank the main and mizzen while they are rotated, reducing loss of boat speed. Not something you'd want to do in close quarters but the MF is hardly a river boat!

    I was contemplating a much smaller, single masted sailboat for sheltered waters. The mainmast would have continous rotation capability but being the only mast all the sail area would back at once during an attempt to tack.

    Despite it's agility, this lightweight boat would likely lack the momentum to complete the tack leaving wearing or boxing as the only options. Neither are suited to my typical sailing locations with bridges, tree-lined shores close by and the odd canoist or power boat driver wondering which side is safe to pass on. So I will pass on the experiment. Pity though, it would have been fun to see people's faces!
     
  9. dskira

    dskira Previous Member

    If you can't pay a crew, why bother to buy a 160 millions dollar boat. :p

    They have a crew now of 20 for hotel puspose and 8 for running the ship, and 2 on deck for the photo op from the chopper.
    We are leaving a very strange time.
    To have a crew of 30 is quite normal for superyacht of that size. But not very knowne, because they are paid to pamper the owner and the guest, not running the ship.
    At the end of the day, the number of crew remain the same. Just their purpose had change.
    Daniel
     
  10. ancient kayaker
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    ancient kayaker aka Terry Haines

    More crew, less paying customers.
     
  11. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Yeah Daniel, we live in the times of "UMS"

    unmanned machinery space.....................

    same on the MF.

    Regards
    Richard
     
  12. dskira

    dskira Previous Member

    The lake of twisting sail posibility on the same mast (The real reason why square rig was so efficient) seams making the whole rig not that efficient, the old timer new the difference of angle of the wind from the deck to the top of the mast.
    It seams it is a lot of engineering design to be at the end not that efficient and making a mute point, since the start (rigid whole panel) is flawed.
    We spend years to make the twisting of the sail an art, even wing designer twist their wing.
    So why be so primitive behind, as I said above, a lot of engineering?
    Something is disfonctional in this rig.
    Every pic show the boat tender, always heeling. Something not right.
    Anyway, it was sold.
    Daniel
     
  13. LyndonJ
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    LyndonJ Senior Member

    You were remarking on the comparison between the clippers and the MF of the basis of the men required to drive them.

    Your beef that the clipper required 30 men is not comparing technology, one is hand powered and one is engine powered.

    So why couldn't you have a clipper with hydraulic motors furlers and deck controls ?

    The result might actually be superior. Just a thought.

    The clippers carried thousands of tons cargo quite efficiently considering.

    I agree with DSkira (Daniel) that the yards should be free to pivot about the mast axis, a good point. I wonder with important guests aboard how often they sail to windward with the lee rail down?
     
  14. ancient kayaker
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    ancient kayaker aka Terry Haines

    No doubt you are right, Daniel, the reduced wind speed near the surface has been known for a long time.

    However, it is a logarithmic function, approximately at least, so is proportionally less of a factor as vessel size increases. The MF's sails start where most sailboats rig ends. It is also less apparent as vessel speed decreases and as the vessel sails closer to the wind.

    The MF is not all that fast for its size, especially, I suspect, close to the wind. It may be the case that the designer simply didn't bother with the capability to set sails at different heights to different angles as it simply wasn't worth the trouble.

    Regarding her tenderness, I don't know enough about big sailing ships to judge. She does not have the ability to set studding sails as far as I can see, so direct downwind would not be her best point of sailing, and she likely does best tacking downwind to present more sail area to the wind. Also the curve of her yards limits how close to the wind she can get without stalling the sails. These points may explain why many of the pictures I have seen of her show her barreling along on a broad reach. Once again, it's a pragmatic design approach: with the ability to motor, why bother with things you don't really need? The decision to sail her on her ear when the course and wind permits seems to have been embedded in her design.
     

  15. LyndonJ
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    LyndonJ Senior Member

    SO really it's not state of the art at all, it's just an impressive visual feast .

    A ship that big carrying passangers with wide open spaces would be very dangerous at those sort of heel angles, it's not a cosy snug little vessel with lots of handholds and narrow spaces. Its all grand staircases and ballrooms style. You'd have to confine people to their bunks.:)
     
    calevi likes this.
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