linen as a sail material.

[dsuursoo]

i've mostly messed about with modern materials for sails, polytarps, tyvek, etc.

but linen sails, now there's a romantic idea. anyone know anything about them, making, what weight, etc?

[BHOFM]

They would need to be waterproof. The romantic ideas
would fade quickly if they were very large and got wet!

[dsuursoo]

Originally Posted by BHOFM

They would need to be waterproof. The romantic ideas
would fade quickly if they were very large and got wet!

dunno... they got on fine a hundred years and more ago, when they didn't have kevlar/dacron, etc.

and if the wind takes them to tension, the fibers stretching(all of aobut 2% if i remember my properties of linen right) would drive most of the moisture out.

[Petros]

It would probably work fine, but I doubt they would be as durable as polyester sail cloth, and likely cost more too. Unless you have a cheap source.

One advantage is they would make much nicer emergency clothes or a blanket than polyester sailcloth. Before they rot away that is.

[Meanz Beanz]

Originally Posted by dsuursoo

i've mostly messed about with modern materials for sails, polytarps, tyvek, etc.

but linen sails, now there's a romantic idea. anyone know anything about them, making, what weight, etc?

Stability would be an issue? but why bother????? Dacron is good and not expensive.

[dsuursoo]

well, depending on the weight used, it's actually not too bad. to be perfectly honest, less expensive than dacron, per yard. at least, for UV resistant.

and so long as the sailcloth is stored dry and away from rats, it'll take a LONG time to rot. possibly nearly as long as some of the synthetics. i've got a source that, without discount, is $8 a yard for 60" wide strips of 8-oz linen. compared to dacron, which tends towards 15 a yard, for narrower strips...

but with dacron the rot isn't an issue, it' UV.

by the way, i'm really getting a humor kick out of the whole, 'don't bother! modern is better! arglebargle!' responses so far. i'm gonna go out on a limb and assume nobody here will know anything about it.

[dsuursoo]

Originally Posted by Meanz Beanz

Stability would be an issue? but why bother????? Dacron is good and not expensive.

dacron's plastic. not totally right when on a wooden hulled schooner.

yeah it'd look fine on the trimaran, but not the big boat.

and how would stability be an issue?

[TeddyDiver]

Had one linen sail ages ago in a cat. It was old allready when I got it but served well.
Just read Tom Cunliffe's book HAND, REEF AND SAIL. A couple of pages about flax. A real choice esp sailing in tropics..

[dsuursoo]

Originally Posted by TeddyDiver

Had one linen sail ages ago in a cat. It was old allready when I got it but served well.
Just read Tom Cunliffe's book HAND, REEF AND SAIL. A couple of pages about flax. A real choice esp sailing in tropics..

i've looked through google's copy, which is limited in what it shows(nothing on materials, but some great stuff on rigging the various topsails and staysails(which i knew diddly about). i've got a copy pending delivery at the local library, and will buy it later. as well as a couple texts on sailmaking that are rather fascinating. the terms used i'm not so sure on, for what weights linen are best. i'll figure it out tho.

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by dsuursoo

i'm not so sure on, for what weights linen are best. i'll figure it out tho.

Emiliano Mariano in Sailmakers Apprentice just states strength-to-weight ratio being low for both cotton and flax (dacron being medium) So reckon double cloth weight for starters (comp. to Dacron..)
Eventually someone will popup with the right estimate

[dsuursoo]

Originally Posted by TeddyDiver

Emiliano Mariano in Sailmakers Apprentice just states strength-to-weight ratio being low for both cotton and flax (dacron being medium) So reckon double cloth weight for starters (comp. to Dacron..)
Eventually someone will popup with the right estimate

heh. my experience with linen as a bowmaker shows it to be far superior to cotton in strength to weight ratio. cotton has these incredibly short fibers, on the order of a couple of inches long, when loose.

flax fibers can be more than three feet long. when spun proper, slightly wetted, with no short tow, you can spin threads that thinner than 22 ga wire that have a breaking strength of up to five pounds and some. irish shoemaker's linen is quite small, yet boasts a breaking strength of 35 pounds. i use seven strands of shoemaker's in my bows(if you're gonna build it, overbuild it!).

hm. i do already grow small amounts of flax, and i can build a more productive spinning wheel easily... but to make sails like i want...

damn. i'm gonna need a farm.

[rwatson]

I believe hemp used to be used extensively for rope - if you grow the right crop you could cash in on some of hemps "fringe benefits" and pay for all the linen you need, as well as getting free rope.

[Squidly-Diddly]

I think the wet made them less porous.

I have a lug-rigged set of ketch sails and masts for a Klepper/Pioneer kayak from the late 50's - early 60's that is in great shape(not a stitch missing, just missing a few little wooden battens) and just looking for a boat.

Quite a lot of sail for a 2 man kayak IMO.

I think it might be linen. Shows no signs of rot, but has a coffee looking stain.

I think even back then they had some pretty effective anti-rot treatments.

Of course, being from a folding kayak they wouldn't normally suffer being stuffed in some damp sail locker for months on end, and the way the sails need to be wrapped around the masts would give the package some air.

[BHOFM]

Correction,, The sails I had were cotton, and when they
got wet, you could not right the boat without taking them
down! It was a 10' dingy thing!

[dsuursoo]

Originally Posted by Squidly-Diddly

I think the wet made them less porous.

I have a lug-rigged set of ketch sails and masts for a Klepper/Pioneer kayak from the late 50's - early 60's that is in great shape(not a stitch missing, just missing a few little wooden battens) and just looking for a boat.

Quite a lot of sail for a 2 man kayak IMO.

I think it might be linen. Shows no signs of rot, but has a coffee looking stain.

I think even back then they had some pretty effective anti-rot treatments.

Of course, being from a folding kayak they wouldn't normally suffer being stuffed in some damp sail locker for months on end, and the way the sails need to be wrapped around the masts would give the package some air.

as i intend to stow the primary sails topside, and they'll have a chance to dry out first, even after the freshwater spraydown, i doubt mildew will be a real problem. the spares will be kept vaccum bagged with moisture absorbing packets inside. should take care of problems, i think. just wish i had a clue what weight to use. it seems like it'd be somewhere in the realm of 16 oz fabric.