Incredible "Secrets of Yacht Design" website located...

[mighetto]

Originally Posted by SailDesign

We (the East Coast) rest our case.......

Dump that, migho.

Love the smilie. Thanks. I am changing my Sailing Anarchy tude on that. It is things like the following that compel me to do so:

Seadrive

On the subject of moveable foils, I think you have confused on thing with another. I think there is a general prohibition against foils that rotate to get a better angle of attack, and limitations on trim tabs. And, there has traditionally been a prohibition against moving ballast (aside from crew) that is left over from the days of sandbaggers.

Excellent leed in as this was the topic I had hoped to get to this week. The story of the sandbaggers. Did you think of it owing to how I was sandbagged during a valentines day massacre.

Sand-baggers were small half-decked boats used for commercial purposes and as party boats by New York sportsmen willing to bet on the races. Wide shallow centerboard craft with huge sails and great beam with two mast steps, one for a sloop rig and one for a cat rig, characterized these movable ballasted racing machines. The movable ballast was in the form of bagged sand and when conditions required the ballast the racers would agree before hand if the ballast was to be "brought home" or thrown overboard during the race. They were 18 to 28 feet in length and popular as early as 1855. These were extraordinarily fast boats in smooth water, perhaps like Melges or Mac26x boats today. However, so that the ballast could be carried out far from centerline the topsides were flared. This meant that the gunwales could be easily burred in the sea with capsizing being the result

Because of their speed, boat designers copied them in bigger models that were not crewed by racing professionals and hence became dangerous. It is because of this that the centerboard yacht gained a bad reputation that should have been credited to poor design rather than to inherent qualities of the type.


However, centerboards and daggerboards that are not heavy enough to have much ballast effect can be moved.

I have been told, but this would be a mater of protest, that if weed is caught on the centerboard it can be moved to clear the weed. But that is about it in PHRF-NW races and it is stretching things. The centerboard or daggerboard MUST have at least enough weight in it that it sinks. Otherwise it is not considered a keel boat and only keel boats are allowed to race PHRF-NW.

The "prohibition" against moving heavy foils is really for boats like the Tripp 26 that are keel boats designed so the keel can be lifted for tailoring. Boats like this may have inadequate stability with the keel up, so the keel must be kept in the down position while racing.

Dude! do you know how long I have been trying to get to this part of the centerboard myth? Hard as I tried, Trip Gal would not go there. Here is the point to be made. There are many keel boaters that believe that all centerboards are good for is for trailering. Just the other day I was told that the only reason MacGregor Yachts has centerboards on its ocean sailboats is for trailering. This totally ignores the owners instructions for the boat and it has caused harm because some owners have been convinced that they need rigging changes to control weather and lee helm. Swing style centerboard positioning controls that. It is a steering control in other words.

It's really enforced via rating: the rating is given for the boat with the keel in the down position. I think there are some grey areas. There was a discussion on SA about racing the S2 7.9 downwind with the keel raised. I would have thought that was prohibited, but I have no special knowledge of the class, or of the details on a PHRF rating certificate.

You can have the boat rated for lifting foils. Mine is so rated for the rudders. The problem is that the same adjustment is made for a lifting foil on my boat (in terms of seconds) as for an S2 7.9. That means you need to protest the adjustment and to have an effective protest you probably need a loosing race season. Who has time for that? What I will be trying to do, assuming my sailing career continues at the wild pace it has recently, is to reduce the penalty by more than half. This just to get more boats to try racing the boat as the manufacturer intended. It also puts the burden of protest on the boats with fixed keels. On these better data has been collected. The final result would probably be class adjustments in ratings for boats with movable ballast. (retractable foils are a form of movable ballast)

With respect to the large crews used on some of the big boats, there is a tension between technology and sociology. Remember that the owners of these boats tend to be captains of industry who are good at collecting and organizing teams; it's what they do at work,

The large crews IMO are also the result of the sandbaggers. When these vessels were upsized for the casual racer, the notion of movable ballast being dangerous was born. Prohibiting this sand bag form of movable ballast required those who wanted to be competitive to replace it with rail meat. Regarding collecting and organizing teams, if that were true then the owners would be good at organizing race events and race clubs as well. Sorry, these fellows need not be good at collecting and organizing teams. You can hire R Coutts, for that. Then once that job is done, you can prepare to fire him and cheat him out of moving to a different AC boat. This is not the conduct of a sportsman and is the reason for Coutts working his protest.

and it's what they do at play. For them, it is a way of using their particular skills and the power of their large purses to set themselves above the common throng.

Common throng? Well in other countries perhaps. In the USA the only folks watching the sailboat races are those who know someone who races. None of those folks are common. Compare with auto racing, or any of a number of sports. No something else is going on, at least in the USA.

A lot of races now have crew weight limits, and most boats would sneak another man along if they could. Still, an Open 60 with one man aboard can out sail a lot of heavily manned boats of similar length.

Nice wrap up.

[pkoken]

Originally Posted by mighetto

Philip, you are going to be very pleased with what I am doing for this sport. You need not believe me. Just watch.

Do I have to? It hurts my eyes!

[frankofile]

Originally Posted by Reemul

Tell me everyone, Am I crazy for not wanting Frank to post pictures of my boat? I fully believe that Frank has the right to free speech. However, I have my own ideas about sailing. Once in a great while I can find something that he says that I agree with. Most of the time I don't agree. And I don't want to it to be thought that by the use of pictures of my boat, that I support his views.
Frank, Why couldn't you have just said, "I'm sorry I didn't know it bothered you and wont do it again" Instead, You gave a F**k you answer and made wild accusations that have no basis in fact. I may have supported you at times before, but never again.

Scott Awalt
Sugar Magnolia
S2 7.9 #253

I'd say you're completely justified. Putting myself in your shoes, what a queasy feeling you must get knowing that Frankie is associating himself with your boat. Yech! The guy is scum on the internet and appears to be scum in person.


Frankie, as for whether or not you are banned from your club's bb, if you see a notice there telling you that you're banned (one that I don't see when I log in, incidentally) then guess what... YOU ARE BANNED.

[Wynand N]

Best use for a mac26x

http://www.sailinganarchy.com/forums...pic=14816&st=0

[mighetto]

Thank you FrankoFile, There should not be collateral damage.

Here is the draft of the protest I will be filing. You all have about 2 hours to comment. I think Internet history is being made here. I removed the names of the sailors involving the misconduct because that seemed the proper thing to do. Any help with this is appreciated.

15 February 2005

Dear Protest Committee,

I wish to report a gross breach of good manners and sportsmanship that has brought the sport into disrepute. The allegations of gross misconduct fall under the Racing Rules of Sailing (RRS) 2001-4.

This report involves encouragement of and actual theft of property by the crew and captain of _____. Encouragement of the theft has been orchestrated for several months on multiple Internet sites, causing considerable loss of reputation for the sport, with the actual thievery taking place on February 14th in what might be called a Valentines Day Massacre.

The property taken is access to my club's bulletin board. I had been warned by the crew of ____, some of whom are members of my club that such action would take place if I continued to express my views publicly regarding fixed fin and movable ballasted vessels, specifically TP52s and MacGregor 26x vessels, but also centerboard vessels and those with canting keels. These views are well documented over a period of several years and reviewed critically and are expressed primarily on a web site I and others from Sailnet.net developed (see http://www.eskimo.com/~mighetto/murrelet.htm)first several years ago and then enhanced regularly owing to critical and sometimes painful review such as that started at Sailing Anarchy by ______. Those offended by my views were able to persuade others, including _____ , donator of my clubs BB, that they had a right not to be offended.

No such right has ever been established in any form of communication in the US. However, I was contacted by ______ by phone who believed otherwise and had been informed by email of my posts, though he would not identify who authored the email. ____ had been a pawn in a similar action several months earlier, likely by the same individuals whoes apparent goal is not only to restrict my ability to speak about sailing but also remove me from my post as Secretary of SSSS. The net result is that a resource I value highly is no longer available, and a working relationship that I value with ____ harmed. ____ challenged me to make this protest.

The BB resource includes threads on the Toliva Shoal race and hence should result in the protest committee calling a hearing. There is continued effort to ban me from posting views regarding fixed fin and movable ballast vessels on other boards such as boatdesign.net and Sailing Anarchy and in soliciting critical review of the web site listed above. That effort will likely continue unless the protest committee can take action at this time.

If I were the only competitor so treated it would be one thing. Unfortunately ____ has threatened others, targeting those she views as my supporters, with similar treatment to the point that one individual believed himself in physical danger, while I was on vacation. She also threatened to orchestrate a boycott of Toliva Shoal which she believes I have involvement with. I have been threatened with dog doo over my vessel and challenged to a race for pink slips. This publically on Internet forums. The behavior just doesn't appear to be stoppable outside of a formal protest and it likely discourages those considering sailboat racing. I have chatted either by phone or email, and publically on Internet Formus with the completitors over a period of several months to try to resolve the issue. Competitors that would need notification in writing of the alleged misconduct include:

1.
2.
3.
4.

What do you think? I doubt the full penulty of exclusion from the race series would be imposed. Is there much or any harm that I would do with such a protest. I am hoping to advance the sport of sailing and not dog it down.

What Say You?

[frankofile]

It's perfect the way it is, very expressive. File it the way it is and don't change a word.

[mistral]

wow, the entire world is conspiring against Frankie!!! good for a Tom Clancy's novel, "The Hunting for the RED MURRELET" with the Captain Frankie Ramius Mighettus, in his new superscret sailboat, a MAC26, escaping from a bunch of TP52 trying to sink his state-of-the-art-boat to keep the world in the dark age of bulb&keel....definitively an intrguing novel, when will it be on bookshop's desk ?????

Mistral

[mighetto]

Well I was encouraged to add some dates and times and email adresses. But basically it is as posted. This race is allowing protests by email so I am doing that now. A hard copy is going with the race registration paper work. Then it is a done deal - no more chatting about it until the committee decides if a hearing will be held. You do not really own your boat until you have made your first modification and I suppose you are not a racer until you have filed a protest. One good aspect - Murrelet is racing Toliva Shoal one full year earlier than planned. Well we will see. It kind of depends on how threatened we feel with "accidental" collisions. Hope to get a feel for that on Friday at the party.

[pkoken]

File it Frank, They are all out to get you...

Make sure to post the details of the proceedings as well~

[mighetto]

Originally Posted by mistral

wow, the entire world is conspiring against Frankie!!! good for a Tom Clancy's novel, "The Hunting for the RED MURRELET" with the Captain Frankie Ramius Mighettus, in his new superscret sailboat, a MAC26, escaping from a bunch of TP52 trying to sink his state-of-the-art-boat to keep the world in the dark age of bulb&keel....definitively an intrguing novel, when will it be on bookshop's desk ?????
Mistral

You can not believe those whoes toes I have stepped on with the TP52 thread. Red is an unlucky color for a sailboat. They paint Melges red.

You still are not getting it; Mac26x boats have positive flotation. They are unsinkable and dealers advertise them that way. The fact that a dealer is currently trying to drum up business for a bulb keel idea on the old Mac26d models at Sailnet.net should clue you into why MacGregor Yachts specifically points out in its owners manuals that dealers do not represent the yacht company.

Murrelet
1999 Mac26x
Olympia WA
Sail number 79020
casting off.

[Crueller]

Francis -

Please advise which competitors in which event you are protesting? Oh and also let us know who you will be calling as witnesses in the event your protest is heard (bwaaaaaaaaahhhaaaa haaaa). Oh and in the event your protest is heard please make sure to photograph the diagram of the 'incident' that you present.

[pkoken]

A Preview Of Frank Mighetto's Hearing

"You see, all of these mean people on the internet said I was stupid and called me bad names..."



"Then they made fun of my boat, and banned me from my own club's discussion forum. I would like to say for the record that all of these activities have been taken by parties who fear my race course dominance. I would like to show Exhibit A, which clearly illustrates the superior speed of my fine ocean voyaging vessel."



"Finally, in fear of being exposed for the poor sailors that they are, they have chosen to defame me upon the internet and to willfully make efforts to interfere with my rights:

• Right to be annoying
• Right to pass my opinion as FACT
• Right to claim any and all performance capabilities for my fine ocean voyaging yacht
• Right to conduct my religious beliefs (worship of Roger MacGregor) without persecution

By denying my rights these people are causing significant harm to me, and to my outstanding professional reputation."

"I would like to offer as proof, a photograph of the fine ship "Murrelet' sailing in the "Seventeenth Mode" and clearly utilizing her sophisticated water ballast. Note, that you can clearly see from the wake, and the lack of a bow wave that in fact, she is PLANING in this photograph."

[FranksaDork]

Originally Posted by mighetto

It is one thing to denigh access to some one who through thier membership dues paid for that access

Frank, you're cracking me up. Your dues have nothing to do with the forum. You have no rights to use it as a member of SSSS. it is not owned by SSSS.

Keep them out of it ok?

And it doesn't matter whom holds the title of moderator. If the OWNER of the board wants you out, guess what, you're out.

[FranksaDork]

Originally Posted by pkoken

A Preview Of Frank Mighetto's Hearing

"You see, all of these mean people on the internet said I was stupid and called me bad names..."


"Then they made fun of my boat, and banned me from my own club's discussion forum. I would like to say for the record that all of these activities have been taken by parties who fear my race course dominance. I would like to show Exhibit A, which clearly illustrates the superior speed of my fine ocean voyaging vessel."


"Finally, in fear of being exposed for the poor sailors that they are, they have chosen to defame me upon the internet and to willfully make efforts to interfere with my rights:

• Right to be annoying
• Right to pass my opinion as FACT
• Right to claim any and all performance capabilities for my find ocean voyaging yacht
• Right to conduct my religious beliefs (worship of Roger MacGregor) without persecution

By denying my rights these people are causing significant harm to me, and to my outstanding professional reputation."

"I would like to offer as proof, a photograph of the fine ship "Murrelet' sailing in the "Seventeenth Mode" and clearly utilizing her sophisticated water ballast. Note, that you can clearly see from the wake, and the lack of a bow wave that in fact, she is PLANING in this photograph."

You crack me up to Phillip. Good stuff. Goood stuff I say.

[mighetto]

Good Morning Boat Designers, Sailing Anarchists and The Society

Old Business

The SSSS BB has suffered what has all the signs of a hack. It was reported to me last night that after filing "the protest" that the BB was first closed to all, then reported to be open only to The Society, then confirmed still closed to all; then the Toliva Thread Only was reported open to all but then it was confirmed to still be closed. And, I was credited with threatening law suits to the donator of the BB, something I would never even consider let alone do. What a story! All of that Serious.

The following whimsical - no snipping now : Operatives are still collecting data, perhaps those who are interested can report back. It appears that all posters who had previously been identified as of The Society may have been targeted with comments meant to frighten them off their own BB and that an unknown organization possibly collecting names for a charity organization soliciting funds for something related to boat design which I will chat about below, was in the process of capturing the entire BB for its own noble gain. Operatives: keep it brief - this forum is about boat design! I only mention this old business by way of preserving my sanity and enhancing my low state of credibility and introducing noble boat design charity efforts. I BE THE MAN. Oh How I Love the Race Game. The best Reality Show ever!

New Business

Back to Serious: It turns out that unknowingly, and in spite of filing "the protest" correctly by email, that I was drafted to be part of the protest committee reviewing it; as was one of the folks named in the complaint. Now I never remember volunteering for this duty but after several reminders to all present that this appeared improper and after threatening to leave the proceedings and being asked most kindly to stay in spite of my aggravated monkey butt state of mind we, an SSSS BB founding member who had been scared off the BB, and a PHRF Board member who was kind enough to attend and is NOT an SSSS Board Member, resolved it. There just are not enough sailors in the world, we need more so that roles and responsibilties do not cross so wildly. Whimsical now: But the ways of The Society, while mysterious are highly effective.

Serious now: I remain convinced that the form of "the protest" and content is right on. Many ideas regarding how "the protest" could be dismissed were discussed. The one that made the most sence was that since the Toliva Shoal Race had not yet started that it was impossible to at this time "fly a flag of protest." For the most part, it was agreed that theft and encouragement of theft was unsportsman like conduct, and with the exception of the individual named in the report, all appeared to agree that for once - it wasn't about me. There was even some recognition that "the protest" involved Toliva because of the race planning value of the Thread on the stolen internet access. While the penulties can be harsh for this kind of thing they can result in just a warning and as far as I am concerned that warning has already been given. So I am withdrawing "the protest". My objective remains to enhance not dog down the sailing sport.

However, the race series had already started and a protest at that level with the same wording, IMO, would make sense. Stand Down Tripp Gal and her supporters. Take the warning shot gracefully.

Furthermore, It turns out that I have yet to file a protest. What I filed was a report. On this kind of thing it is the committee that reviews that report which actally makes the protest. The protest is by committee inother words.

This mechanism has so much potential to keep flame wars off all the sailing related sites that I am passing information on this experience to those whos judgement must be respected so it may be used in the future.

Now back to boat design. The notion that centerboards are mechanisms only for trailering has to not only be tempered with the fact that owners manuals for most of these craft will say otherwise but also with the fact that more and more sailing areas have slings to lift smaller vessels to their trailers. The more these lifts become available the more leeway designers will have with the kinds of centerboards they can market. In particular, these lifts support the canters. Blue Water Yachts, a dealer of both MacGregors and Schock 40s just this year acquired one. The charitable foundation I referred to whimsically, is trying to get such a lift for South Puget Sound. Their efforts truly are noble because they support the Future of Yacht Design. That future is movable ballast, quite likely canters as well as water ballast, and removable keels for trailering. Now whimsical: I can not claim that The Foundation was born from The Society, nor that they should be viewed that way, but I have given money to them an encourage others to do so as well.

The Church of FOYD is now open.

We welcome The Society today and thank them for complements on the research the church has done regarding boat design. Please do not be afraid to post. All are welcome here.