Incredible "Secrets of Yacht Design" website located...

[Wynand N]

Frankie, you are an interesting character

In South Africa we have a saying " slim vang sy eie baas".

Since you are so full of wisdom, work it out yourself or with your Church of FOYD congregation.

[woodboat]

I really don't know what you guys are going on about. I followed the link and also looked at the new 26M http://www.macgregorsailboats.com/sa...omparison.html
It seems to be quite an impressive craft. Very inexpensive too. I don't know about longevity but one can hardly fault it's performance. Is pkoken trying to suggest that the claims are false or is he simply upset about the non-conventional way the performance is achieved? It is too small for me and my 5 children but using a little common sense one could see the clear advantages. I might go so far as too recommend it sight unseen. Did anyone watch the full 52 minute video? The hand laid glass looks well done.

[mighetto]

Originally Posted by water addict

Go Frankie!! Flame more nonesense! Yes! Yes! Yes!!!!!!! AAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!

Water Addict,

Welcome to the Church of FOYD. We accept even NAs from Maryland. Regarding Nonesence, your gripe is with Sail, The world's Leading Sailing Magazine. Do get the Special Issue. How dare they print an advertisement stating that Catalina boat owners will tell you more about building boats than a room of naval architects. How many NAs does it take to......

we could have years of material but it would be nonesense. Lets talk commonsense. Page 50 or 51 of the same January 2005 magazine.

The article is on entering rivers from the sea.

"Be aware that because fast powerboats draw almost no water and can keep ahead of a wave, they can enter in conditions that are dangerous (for contemporary) sailboats"

Now look at the Mac26x. The same river bar, possibly not safe to pilot for a contemporary sailboat design is negotiated with the ease of a boston whaler or grady white. Just retract boards and use the outboard to stay ahead of the waves. If you are not seeing by now you are trying hard not to. Both the modern and marketed as revolutionary Mac26x and the contemporary fixed water ballasted Mac26m share this valuable powerboat and commonsense feature.

We of course have gotten no where close to where I had hoped to be today. But progress has been made. Let us close the Church of FOYD and go to boat shows or sail this week end by explaining why NAs such as those from Maryland are having trouble.

What they know comes from secondary and tertiary sources. They quote other people's ideas and opinions and then accept these views without evaluation. They are public leaders accepting and promoting norms that affect other people's lives without knowing or evaluating their source or their validity. In the place of knowledge what they have is an agreement among themselves. They come to a consensus, as though that uniformity of mind founded on nothing other than their collective willingness to agree were a virtue. And then they draw plans based on them. This is not the Future of Yacht design.

Murrelet
1999 Mac26x
Olympia Washington
Sail 79020
casting off.

Have a great week end all. That includes NAs from Maryland, who confuse flame with valid criticism that can be used to save them. I think Water Addict on the road to salvation. He has at least spoken.

[Skippy]

Originally Posted by woodboat

I really don't know what you guys are going on about. I followed the link and also looked at the new 26M ... It seems to be quite an impressive craft.

wb have you seen the TP52 thread? Most of the references are to the water-ballasted 26X.

[mighetto]

Originally Posted by Wynand N

Frankie, you are an interesting character

In South Africa we have a saying " slim vang sy eie baas".

Since you are so full of wisdom, work it out yourself or with your Church of FOYD congregation.

I received an email from a South African claiming that a Mac26x clone was being produced in country. Can you confirm. This was about six months ago. slim vang sy eie baas sounds like something said in a bones initiation right. I suppose all those in the closed circle must now pretend to be offended and leave the thread. Sigh, what a sad society we live in. Better in South Africa eh?

[pkoken]

I am removing myself from this thread, and I am also providing a humble apology to the community of Boatdesign.net for assisting in creating yet another useless topic.

I will comment no further, and if others follow this example soon Mr. Mighetto will be alone here with his crackpipe and his magic mushrooms.

[woodboat]

wb have you seen the TP52 thread?

Nope, don't even know what a TP52 is. I have a sailboat but never use it anymore. I might fix it up for the kids. My current boat is a 50 FT Burns craft houseboat. So forgive me if I do not know a halyard from rope The thread title intrigued me. I stopped in and followed the link. I found the Macgregor page. My best friend at work has a 30 ft Columbia, 1966. There is a macgregor at his marina. The owner says he loves it. The boat will run circles around his columbia. So... from looking at the specs it seems impressive. From watching the video it seems impressive. From an actual owner bubbling with praise as well I have to conclude that it is a very good boat, fast, inexpensive and trailerable. I mean if I were crossing the ocean I would want to be in something a whole lot bigger, if nothing else for amenities. So from the outside looking in, it appears that this boat has broken with tradition of slow displacement hulls that are heavy and draw a lot of water and gone with a lighter, planing type hull. It appears as if this has ruffled some feathers. At least that is the way it appears, am I wrong?

[mighetto]

Originally Posted by woodboat

I really don't know what you guys are going on about. I followed the link and also looked at the new 26M http://www.macgregorsailboats.com/sailboat_comparison.html
It seems to be quite an impressive craft. Very inexpensive too. I don't know about longevity but one can hardly fault it's performance. Is pkoken trying to suggest that the claims are false or is he simply upset about the non-conventional way the performance is achieved? It is too small for me and my 5 children but using a little common sense one could see the clear advantages. I might go so far as too recommend it sight unseen. Did anyone watch the full 52 minute video? The hand laid glass looks well done.

Woodboat,

The video to watch is posted on
http://www.always-online.com/hardtlefamily/KnotShoreDefault.htm . This is the Mac26x video. There is also a link to the brochure from there. The revolutionary boat was marketed that way from the start and owners were told they were getting a 40,000 boat for 18,000. I have come to believe that. Of course you can esially double the cost with electronics and options. pkoken is obviously aware of the Cardwell book. Dr. Jerry Cardwell favored the Mac26x over his beloved Catalina and wrote about it. This is the source of the information about the extra work done in glass by MacGregor Yachts on the X model. See http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1574090070/103-2944007-0130262

Catalina uses hand layed class in hulls and vacuum bags bulkheads and deck structures. There is a new process that involves a hull plug and I think it was contemplated by MacGregor Yachts for the M but they eventually chose the proven methodology from X production. The new methodology might have put out hulls that required painting and this might have explained the blue M hulls but my observations and the current video show that the proven methods for ocean sailboat construction are used. Catalina Yachts and MacGregor Yachts have some kind of relationship to eachother - or did at one time. The fittings on my X are the fittings of a Catalina Yacht. Boat Building in California has always been an inbread situation with companies sharing staff and techniques with eachother. Anyway The Cardwell book was recently reprinted if you are interested. It is on purchasing a used boat.

BTW, who is hacking the thread with views stuck on 666?

[dougfrolich]

Woodboat,
What type of boat appeals to you is a very personal thing-but be careful of advertising claims, and the claims of people that only have experience on a small number of craft when formulating youre own op. I have had a great time floating down a river in an oversized innertube-I wouldn't call it a great boat though. If you want a great sailing boat keep an open mind and keep looking, if you want a RV that is cheap, and trailorable, you may have found it.

[woodboat]

Thanks dougfrolich, I do suspect that the advice will be useful to a rookie I grew up on the water, the Chesapeake bay. I have developed a real knack for "seeing" how a boat will perform prior to actually using it. It was no great surprise when my 50ft, 36000 LB boat performs more or less like a barge. I am not in the market for a sailboat, especially not this small. I can see that this boat would be fast and fun for a large majority of day and weekend sailors. I have also heard, second hand mind you, that it will run circles around a more "classic" design. I would suspect that with it's narrow beam and light weight, even with ballast, that it would BOB a bit on the hook. Every boat is some sort of compromise. Again it appears to me that this would be an awesome day sailor and possible overnighter.

[woodboat]

I watched the full 52 minutes earlier today. I did that BEFORE I posted anything. I used what I saw in the video to form my opinion as well as the guy at the marina, the advertising literature and the specifications. I was VERY skeptical at first thinking that it would be a compromise making a bad sailor and a bad power boat. The fact that it can go that well with a little 50 HP really says something. There are MANY 28 fters with 250 HP small block V8s and inboards that are barely faster. I don't know about 17 MPH with a sail but heck it sure looked like it moved easily through the water. Just look at the small wake.

[Wynand N]

Mighetto,

Thanks for your kind words and wishfull thinking.
By the way, send me some of the stuff you fill your pipe with.

As for your beloved Mac26x, here is a link on them you might just enjoy.

http://www.cruisenews.net/forum/view...?t=136&start=0

Oh, whilst you at it, why not stay there. Laid back site, a single post maybe in a week or so, just the place where you can share all your liberated views and gospel teachings.

Remember the saying "slim vang sy eie baas", not worked it out yet? Maybe some of our Dutch friends might enlighten you to the meaning of this wise words, or better still, leave you until "slim vang sy eie baas"

[woodboat]

I followed the link but thought it was pretty pathetic. The macgregor seems to be a wonderful little boat but gets bashed because it wouldn't be good to circumnavigate the globe. I like it but would dare head out across the ocen in it. I wouldn't head out into the ocean with my house boat either, so what.
I went here http://www.worldlingo.com/en/product...ranslator.html did dutch to english and all it gives is malignant catch sy eie boss So I don't have a clue what that means.

[Skippy]

Originally Posted by woodboat

... it appears that this boat has broken with tradition of slow displacement hulls that are heavy and draw a lot of water and gone with a lighter, planing type hull. It appears as if this has ruffled some feathers. At least that is the way it appears, am I wrong?

What ruffles feathers is all the BS in the TP52 thread. Spaghetto has a wide variety of claims and theories that he spews there, ranging from the lunatic to the paranoid. Here are a few examples:

Originally Posted by Spaghetto

11-01-2004
Duty calls. .... I will not enjoy this, but what choice do I have? I must go forward with a sense of noblesse oblige.
11-03-2004
It is my understanding that bringing the bulb weight closer to the hull makes the boat faster like bringing the arms of a twirling ice skater in makes the ice skater twirl faster.
The better design is to just get rid of the weight on the fin and put it closer to or internal to the hull
11-04-2004
My Mac26x is more worthy of an ocean crossing than Esmeralda [a TP52].
11-12-2004
Ballast is just weight, like {everthing else on the boat and} the hull itself.
11-15-2004
If weight on a long thin foil really makes a boat go faster then why don't powerboats have weight on long thin foils?
if an ice skater wants to twerl faster she brings the weight of her arms in, she does not extend them. This internal ballast rule applies to everything that moves: cars, motorcycles, planes, power boats and yes - even sailboats. Internal ballast is just faster.
An ice yacht theoretically has no limit to its speed owing to the wind she creates just by moving forward. That wind changes the apparent wind ...
12-01-2004
it appears that water ballast should not be pumped side to side but rather remain in both sides to improve windward performance in rough water and the ballast should be low in the boat, like twin keels
12-02-2004
I spent most of my life power boating
In anycase the notion of pumping water from side to side as defining movable ballast ... is a new notion and an incorrect one when you realize that water ballasted vessels benefit by having ballast on both sides of the vessel owing to the stable forces similar to a twin keel vessel.
12-16-2004
The wire, folks like to call a backstay, IMO is for motoring.
12-20-2004
My Mac26x is more TransPacific than probably most of the TP52s.
12-20-2004
Americas Cup rules prohibit hollows. This I understand is what prevents multihulls from competing because the space between the hulls is a big hollow. The effect of the hollow, is like that of the spoon. It lifts the hull from the water at speed.

[And from another website ybw.com]
28/09/2004
The Mac26x is a serious ocean sailboat.
There is nothing in a monohull under 40 foot and under 180,000 US that compares.

And there is a whole system of claims about conspiracies engaged in by the designer of the TP52, comments about how the sailing community's biases keep us back from understanding the "pioneering" breakthroughs of centerline water ballast. Spaghetto claims the 26X has "movable" ballast (it moves ON and OFF the boat). Oh, and just this week he asked on the CBTF thread whether those boats can sail directly into the wind, zero degrees off.....

Originally Posted by woodboat

I was VERY skeptical at first thinking that it would be a compromise making a bad sailor and a bad power boat. The fact that it can go that well with a little 50 HP really says something.
The macgregor seems to be a wonderful little boat but gets bashed because it wouldn't be good to circumnavigate the globe. I like it but would dare head out across the ocen in it. I wouldn't head out into the ocean with my house boat either, so what.

I can see a fast sailboat hull doing okay as a slow motorboat. But Spaghetto's claim is that a cheap centerline-water-ballasted motorsailer is better for deep ocean sailing than an expensive keel-bulb sailboat. The TP52 is a high-end ocean racer, and Spaghetto claims the 26X is more seaworthy than the TP52. This despite the fact that a couple children were killed a few years back when the captain was sailing (drunk) without the ballast and the boat capsized in a light breeze.

Originally Posted by WynandN

In South Africa we have a saying " slim vang sy eie baas".

Originally Posted by woodboat

I went here ... don't have a clue what that means.

If you plug the words into the Travlang Dictionary you'll come up with something like "The smart man captures his own master." What this has to do with Spaghetto I have no idea .....

[Wynand N]

If you plug the words into the Travlang Dictionary you'll come up with something like "The smart man captures his own master." What this has to do with Spaghetto I have no idea ....

Well done Skippy. I only now realises my mistake.....