Incredible "Secrets of Yacht Design" website located...

[mighetto]

Originally Posted by dreamer

Very good summary Dr. Skippy. Here I was thinking I would have to google this nutball in order to get the whole enchilada. Now I feel enlighted. Well, actually I feel nauseous.
Kind of like eating a poorly cooked enchilada.

Get the whole enchilada at http://www.eskimo.com/~mighetto/murrelet.htm

One of my crew, on dog doo patrol, was told by an anarchist, or an affiliate, that the Mac26x rigging is to light. For those with lesser vessels, it may look so. However the telephone masts common on displacement hulls are totally inappropriate for boats that plane or surf. These telephone masts create a lot of wind resistance. They are thick because the hull is sucked into the sea the faster the displacement vessel goes and at some point, if the sailor doesn't reduce sail, the stresses on the mast become huge and dismasting is the end result.

On boats that plane or surf, the stress forces on a mast are much different. Rather than the hull being sucked into the sea the faster they go they crest the bow wakes. In gusts they break from the sea. Because of this the mast doesn't move faster than the hull which is the definition of a dismasting.

The shrouds and stays on light rigged vessels are like the strings on a guitar. It is not appropriate to upsize them. They are meant to stretch in ways that contribute to sail shape and prevent dismasting. It is very common for a keel boat sailor to give advise regarding shrouds and stays that is totally inappropriate for boats that are meant to take light rigging.

[asathor]

I really don't think you can invent a new kind of science just because your boats rigging seems to be adequate. Windgusts that change the windspeed from 15 mph to 30 mph instantly (or worse) does the same to all boats even McGregors - nothing weighing that much can accelerate that fast. Take your favorite boat to Tiera Del Fuego and see for yourself.

That aside I can understand that you are quite happy with your boat. Sales show that many people like that boat. God for them and McGregor - careful marketing is usually rewarded by a better match between product, seller and consumers.

I am quite sure that I do not wan't to convert to the McGregor religion. I sail a Freedom but that does not mean that I am not convinced that Gary Hoyt is god. And my computer is not an Apple even Jobs is a much cooler Guru than Gates - I am to cheap and change things a lot so I settle for a PC with an abundance of different and usually cheaper software.

A McGregor 66 however could get my heart beating quite a lot faster than the average boat, your included, however my wife has woved to never live in a basement. So now what - should I loose the wife and get the boat? Heck good wifes are hard to come by - great boats are a dime a dozen in comparison.

Get real about that boat, in a few years it will be a money pit like all others. At best it is going to be like a bad marriage; you put money every month but it only gets exciting a few weekends a year.

I have had the same boat since 86 and plan to keep it. Why? Well, she over 18 now so I can take her out alone without mom coming along, and the wife doesn't even get jealous.

[mistral]

Originally Posted by mighetto

The shrouds and stays on light rigged vessels are like the strings on a guitar. It is not appropriate to upsize them. They are meant to stretch in ways that contribute to sail shape and prevent dismasting. It is very common for a keel boat sailor to give advise regarding shrouds and stays that is totally inappropriate for boats that are meant to take light rigging.

YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSS, come on Frankie, go on, give us another pill of wisdom YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS, i guess if shroud are guitar strings you claim to be Andrè Segovia
i hope those guys from Southern Spar or Sparcraft, who are using Nitronic and cobalt rods to have stiffer and lighter shrouds on racing sailboat don't read your speechs, they'll probably die from laughing
so streching the shrouds make better sail shape ??????
Frankie, take your guitar back and play yourself a "Serenata", you really need it

[mighetto]

asathor

I really don't think you can invent a new kind of science just because your boats rigging seems to be adequate. Wind gusts that change the wind speed from 15 mph to 30 mph instantly (or worse) does the same to all boats even McGregors - nothing weighing that much can accelerate that fast. Take your favorite boat to Tiera Del Fuego and see for yourself.

Wish I could take credit for Ballerina Science. That was a good one. Wind gusts from 15 mph to 30 mph instantly are not uncommon in my sailing area and on Lake Mead, which hosts Macgregor races. These are not going to break masts. But they will rip sails. MacGregor put Doyle sails on the Mac26x vessels and I suppose with age these may now be susceptible. In any case, a gust from 15 mph to 30 mph is the perfect opportunity to get the Mac26x on plane. They are that light even fully ballasted. I suspect Melges are the same way. With a planing vessel you fall off in the puffs instead of pointing into them. Unlike a displacement vessel, the planing vessel will reduce her heel when falling off in a puff as she goes from forced mode to planing mode. This single aspect - falling off in puffs rather than heading up, probably explains why the US Sailing trained are unable to sail a Mac26x. For them the boat truly is crap because their training is inadequate for a modern sailboat design.

That aside I can understand that you are quite happy with your boat. Sales show that many people like that boat. Good for them and McGregor - careful marketing is usually rewarded by a better match between product, seller and consumers.

You can not go wrong with a MacGregor. That is what I was told by a Catalina Loyal who purchased a Mac26d as a placeholder for a larger Catalina. The MacGregor Yachts company has a wonderful track record of providing yachts that hold their value. But you are incorrect about marketing. MacGregor Yachts does very little. Advertising is all by word of mouth. Folks (engineers) figured out that the Mac26x was likely a slightly bigger minitransat; they knew Roger was claiming the boat could do 17 MPH under sail, that he had been honored in the Sailboat Hall of Fame, and that he was claiming to sell a 40,000 boat for 18,000. A used minitransat will run something like 40,000. These claims just are not that hard to believe when you look at what data is made freely available to boat designers from the minitransats. http://www.xs4all.nl/~blvrd/html/design.html. The notion that the minitransates likely are compromised by design rules and that Roger MacGregor was not so restricted further supports pioneer owner's decision to purchase. Word of mouth then popularized the craft all over the world.

Contrary to marketers of lesser vessels, the Mac26x was portrayed as revolutionary and because of that she probably was not intended for first time boat purchasers. This notion is supported by the interiors. Boats targeted for new purchasers usually are done in earth tones, these colors appealing to young women and their husbands. The Mac26x has always been done in pastels. This attracts more mature prospects.

I am quite sure that I do not want to convert to the McGregor religion. I sail a Freedom but that does not mean that I am not convinced that Gary Hoyt is god. And my computer is not an Apple even Jobs is a much cooler Guru than Gates - I am to cheap and change things a lot so I settle for a PC with an abundance of different and usually cheaper software.

Don't you love the Microsoft staff and their IPODs. In your face Guru Gates. carbon fibre tapered mast? Yamaha 4hp long shaft outboard ? Cat Rig? Centerboard, Trailerable. 21 footer. Hats off to Gary Hoyt. Right up there with Roger MacGregor. No doubt about it. They are even in the same club.

http://www.sailamerica.com/halloffame/freedom40.cfm

A McGregor 66 however could get my heart beating quite a lot faster than the average boat, yours included, however my wife has vowed to never live in a basement. So now what - should I loose the wife and get the boat? Heck good wifes are hard to come by - great boats are a dime a dozen in comparison.

The best design is the design your wife will sail with you on. Mine doesn't like the Mac65 either. Deck Salons, such a nice new term for the "dangerous" pilot houses that get ripped off when the boat capsizes. It definately is nice to be able to enjoy the view from below decks while eating dinner. MacGregor Yachts points out that the Mac26x will out motor the Mac65. Family members like to be able to get there fast on occasion.

Get real about that boat, in a few years it will be a money pit like all others. At best it is going to be like a bad marriage; you put money every month but it only gets exciting a few weekends a year.

Oh on this I agree. For a maintenance free vessel, I spend 2 to 3 hours for each hour out there. The work is mostly in reconfiguring the vessel from race mode to cruising mode and in carting material to and from the vessel. I spend less time refuling these days. The money pit is in the electronics. I am convinced that you can double the cost of a Mac26x with all the electronics you want. We have radar, GPS, auto pilot but gad zooks there are fish finders, wind measurement gizmos, water speed gizmos, weather plotters, Wi Fi, EPRIB, microwave ovens. Argh now in color. At least with a Trailerable you can avoid the cost of a slip if you want. We keep ours in the water all year. It is about $300 per month to do so. We have a 30 foot slip. I have a Wallis Marine cooker whose blower needs fixing. There is often something broken. If its boating its fun not work. The Mac26x is suppose to be as maintenance free as possible. I think that is true. There are few boats where the interior can hosed down for cleaning.

I have had the same boat since 86 and plan to keep it. Why? Well, she over 18 now so I can take her out alone without mom coming along, and the wife doesn't even get jealous.

This is a great statement because it fits so well with the notion that it takes a life time to learn a craft well enough to sail her really well. My wife thinks I have to much fun sailing alone and it isn 't "fair" unless she tags along. But I have parked her at a resort and done some serious sailing with her watching from shore. Do you think a US Sailing trained keel boater capable on your craft? Would it not take years of unlearning before compentency let alone competitive sailing?

[mighetto]

Originally Posted by mistral

YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSS, come on Frankie, go on, give us another pill of wisdom YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS, i guess if shroud are guitar strings you claim to be Andrè Segovia
i hope those guys from Southern Spar or Sparcraft, who are using Nitronic and cobalt rods to have stiffer and lighter shrouds on racing sailboat don't read your speechs, they'll probably die from laughing
so streching the shrouds make better sail shape ??????
Frankie, take your guitar back and play yourself a "Serenata", you really need it

Don't know much about history,
Don't know much biology,
Don't know much about the French I took
Don't know much from Bethwaite's Book
But what I do know is that shrouds should stretch
and if they stretch as they are designed to do, what
a wonderful sail you will have.

La da da.. da da da

Seranata in the key of mighetto.

Seriously, we have the advantage of having Brian Toss, a rigger who makes his money by finding fools who have tightend turnbuckles beyond tune. Stretching the wire beyond recommended distroys the elastisity of the wire which really is meant to work like the string on a guatar. The shroud adjusters on the Mac26x, and Mac26m, are not only easier to work with, but they are also lighter and stronger and easier to see when replacement is necessary. Turnbuckels can be damaged and then made to look alright prior to the boat being sold. Brian will advise replacing all of them if you do not know the history of the used boat. Shroud adjusters have holes that you count when you have a good sail, note in the log and then use again when conditions are similar. The fact that they are less expensive than turnbuckles does not mean they are not better. How is that for a song. Can you dance to it?

I do like smilies. Keep up the good work!

[Skippy]

Originally Posted by asathor

I really don't think you can invent a new kind of science just because your boats rigging seems to be adequate.

You know, that's an interesting point. The X's sail is so puny, it's never going to grab all that much wind. And as soon as it does get a gust or higher wind, the boat just heels right over and spills air. So there's nothing in the boat's design that will necessitate the heavier rigging. The boat just sits there, heels over, and capsizes. It's just like that T-shirt I saw once: "I don't have a drinking problem. I drink, I get drunk, I fall down. No problem!"

btw, our friends at SA have discovered that Frank is a tumor.

[mistral]

it's simple, rigging is dimensioned regarding righting moment at 30° RM30, since MAC26 has a really poor RM30, is obvious that mast sections are light, that's all, no misteries, no strange ballerina math calculations, it's just a straight consequence of a compromise design suited to cruise both with engine and sail in a very conservative way.

Mistral

[mighetto]

Originally Posted by Skippy

You know, that's an interesting point. The X's sail is so puny, it's never going to grab all that much wind. And as soon as it does get a gust or higher wind, the boat just heels right over and spills air. So there's nothing in the boat's design that will necessitate the heavier rigging. The boat just sits there, heels over, and capsizes. It's just like that T-shirt I saw once: "I don't have a drinking problem. I drink, I get drunk, I fall down. No problem!"

btw, our friends at SA have discovered that Frank is a tumor.

David's parents had been auctioning off a bumper sticker reading "Frank Must Die" on eBay to raise money for the procedure. Skippy you are good. I spewed cola on that. Hoping David and all a great sailing weekend.

[mighetto]

Originally Posted by mistral

it's simple, rigging is dimensioned regarding righting moment at 30° RM30, since MAC26 has a really poor RM30, is obvious that mast sections are light, that's all, no misteries, no strange ballerina math calculations, it's just a streight compromise design suited to cruise both with engine and sail in a very conservative way.

WoW, impressive sounding. A monohull that can be sailed at 17MPH is hardly conservative. This is how Roger MacGregor viewed the vessel when he was producing them. I quote

"Here are your sailing choices: (1) With the water ballast tank full and conservative sails, the 26x is an extremely stable sailboat, ideal for a beginner. (2) With the big Genoa jib or spinnaker, it is a conventional self righting sailboat with outstanding sailing speed. (3) Unballasted, it is one of the wildest and potentally fastest sailboats around. Under power (1) without ballast, it is a rather fast conventional cabin cruiser, or (2) with the water ballast, a docile, heavily ballasted power boat."

I suppose you have forgotten. THESE ARE NOT RACE BOATS. They are cruiser-racers. Revolutionary cruiser-racers. I can add that almost all the boats now sport Genoas and that compromise design is a term that in the modern age refers to a sailboat that can not both sail and motor well.

[101]

Mighetto, What is the point here . . . are you just defending the MacGregor design or are you trying to state that the MacGregor design is the best? I am trying to figure out this thread . . . . I don't know if I can.

[pkoken]

Hey! I can't find the "Frank Must Die" bumper stickers to buy on eBay, can someone point me to the correct item#?

Maybe I should have looked for "Mighetto must die"?

[Skippy]

http://www.brytrcorp.com/wst_page4.html

[Wynand N]

Why us Lord.........?

[SailDesign]

Wynand, you owe me a keyboard! This one's full of coffee.....

[D'ARTOIS]

Frank, I have an idea . Why bothering around with that useless 50 hp creamwhipper. I have a 20 Mw gasturbine for you. Add wings to your Mcalfabet and you may fly too!