Incredible "Secrets of Yacht Design" website located...

[mighetto]

Originally Posted by water addict

Oh yes Frankie YES!!! Of course you are helping us poor ignorant masses because you are such an enlightened being!! How did we ever get on without you. Praise!! All Praise!!

Addict. Web Logs, BLOGS, this forum, this thread, are a relatively new technology. While the standards of behavior are different for the different BLOGS usually it is considered inappropriate to QUOTE less than the entire statement. This is because out of context, meaning can be changed, and because this is a standard mode of flaming.

Pre Internet folks became enlightened by hiring professionals - lawyers, teachers, doctors, yes even NAs and boat designers. It took to long to research by other means.

Post Internet all professions struggle to show relivancy.

Those who advance beyond trade secrets, which are now easily googled out, will prosper. Those who hope to keep the masses ignorant by calling them Idiots for asking Why and flaming them off a forum will fall behind and become not relevant.

Those of us lucky enough to be at a computer all day long, have in effect a learning environment that will advance us beyond the professionals who choose to ignore our faith in this technology. Addict, you are welcome in the Church of FOYD. While our faith in humanity may be tested, our faith in the power of this Internet Technology is solid. Free and Usefull discussion will be the order Here. I seriously do not know how the poor ignorant masses did without it. Not well obviously. The masses have been manipulated into thinking that sail boats that sink when swamped are superior to those that do not. It is this kind of myth that we address.

We in the church also want to bring back the voices of the multihullers. By pure flame, they are reluctant to post. Yet their ways will be the ways of the monohuller in the new order. The ways of 17MPH under sail!

[Skippy]

Originally Posted by Spaghetto

A flat deck can make a vessel stable when the boat is inverted.

As can be seen here:

Originally Posted by Spaghetto

Operator Competency is important to stability.

Especially with the boat pictured above.

[sorenfdk]

Originally Posted by Skippy

As can be seen here:


Especially with the boat pictured above.

"Boat" - isn't that a caravan?

[mighetto]

Originally Posted by frankofile

It is astonishing to contemplate.
Here's one from earlier today that made my jaw drop:
Clearly Frankie has never been out in the ocean in stormy weather in spite of his claim to an extensive sailing resume. To think that he could say the crew of a boat capsized in the middle of a storm was not in danger... incredible. Frank, two children died when one of your "safe" Mac26X's capsized in the middle of a lake, with nothing more than boat wakes to stir the surface. No howling wind, no breaking waves, just a 26 foot boat laying on its side with two dead children inside. How is the contract coming along, Frank? Any queries yet regarding the citizen complaints about your conduct?

I claim to have a sailing resume more extensive than most who own sailboats. But so what. Even a newbee should be able to post. Lover, you are missing the point. In the modern age, because of modern weather reporting, because of all those photos from space, you have to be a thrill seaker to get into storm in the first place. The film Perfect Storm was accurate. The Andrea Gail did not need to weather the storm. She could have waited it out in calm. This is what the modern age gives us. I now get to tell my version of a famous story.

A young fellow desired his Captain's License. Part of the requirement for the license was an oral exam. So he put on his best suit and thinking cap and presented himself to the tormentors.

One of them started by asking what he would do if at anchor when the wind picked up owing to gale. The candidate answered smartly. I would let out more chain. To which the tormenter replied - It is all gone. OK the candidate followed, I will put out my second anchor. Alright the questioner replied but now a storm is predicted. Thats fine the candidate answered, I will put out my third anchor at which point the examiner yelled SIR WHERE ARE YOU GETTING ALL THIS EQUIPMENT. The candidate replied. The same place you are getting all that wind.

We can chat hypothetically until we are blue in the face. The fact is that Sailing is not all that dangerous. Sailing in a race fleet is less dangerous. No one died in the last SH. Lets not pretend it was a repeat of 1998.

Regarding the project. It is always dificult when those in charge may not be tomorrow. There is no doubt that stability in government, like stability in a boat is everything. Evenutally the state will have a governor. In theory it shouldn't make any difference to me or the team who that is. But as a practical matter, many are coping very poorly. I choose to think about sailing rather than that. So enough said.

[mighetto]

Søren Flening

Great to have you back! I prefer this photo. These are X model



I kind of am in the same mode of thinking as the water bound sailboat owners on this one. Living in a trailer isn't all that appealing. We picked the name Murrelet because a marbled murrelet nests in old growth forest even though she is a sea bird. Boats that can be transported to wilderness lakes, can still give their owners the kind of experience Slocum had on Spray. There is value in that.

The deck structure on both the X and M is IMO deck salon style. On the X you have 360 degree visibility from below deck while at the dinnete - like on a pilot house boat or on the Catalina 440. On the M you gain lack of inverted stability from the deck structure and not 360 visibility owing to the head bulkhead and multihull like daggerboard trunk. Neither have flat top decks

[amolitor]

> We ask for guidance on CG. Is there any advantage of extending the CG to a point
> outside of the hull? Can we assume there is no such advantage given that this
> situation is flagged as unusual by boat reviewers?

No, we cannot assume this. Furthermore, we cannot assume that placing weight below
the hull is useless to lower the center of gravity, even if that center of gravity does not eventually wind up below the hull.

It is obvious to small children that a pound hung 6 feet below the hull lowers the center of gravity a lot more than a pound inside the hull.

Your trouble, frank, is that you lay down axioms that are complete rubbish, and then reason from them. Stop it.

[frankofile]

Originally Posted by mighetto

We ask for guidance on CG. Is there any advantage of extending the CG to a point outside of the hull? Can we assume there is no such advantage given that this situation is flagged as unusual by boat reviewers? The implications are grave for those who favor sexy? testicle keels (bulb keels). A bright angel is requested to turn the light bulb on.

Frankie, if you don't even understand the fundamentals, how can you claim any expertise? You are a ***** of the highest order.

By the way, "ofile" doesn't mean I have anything but contempt for you. The o-file is the trash can where everything you say belongs. You confuse that with "ophile" because you assume, for some reason, that my spelling and grammar are as atrocious as yours are.

[Skippy]

Originally Posted by sorenfdk

"Boat" - isn't that a caravan?

Soren, this is a covered outdoor hot tub being delivered to someone's home. The hot tub is placed in the purchaser's yard, and people can gather for a hot soak any time of year. The metal pipe above the tub is the plumbing that is connected to the house to provide a water supply. Add an electrical extension cord to power the heater and jets, and your winter hot tub is installed!

[mighetto]

Originally Posted by amolitor

> We ask for guidance on CG. Is there any advantage of extending the CG to a point
> outside of the hull? Can we assume there is no such advantage given that this
> situation is flagged as unusual by boat reviewers?

No, we cannot assume this. Furthermore, we cannot assume that placing weight below the hull is useless to lower the center of gravity, even if that center of gravity does not eventually wind up below the hull.

It is obvious to small children that a pound hung 6 feet below the hull lowers the center of gravity a lot more than a pound inside the hull.

Your trouble, frank, is that you lay down axioms that are complete rubbish, and then reason from them. Stop it.

amolitor,

Well this is not going well. At all. How are the following statements?

It has not been shown that when the CG is lower than the hull that there is any improvement in speed or stability.

It is likely that when the CG is lower than the hull that the hull integrity is in question.

Bulb keels are the result of IMS rules/ design rules that at best are nuetral and likely are harmful.

Off, On, nuts?

My problem is the problem of power boat designers who for some reason do not hang bulb keels from thier vessels even though stability is everything and speed is also an objective. If such structures were more than the recent and failed experiment that I maintain they are we would see them on motor craft.

The Church of FOYD is now closed. The children need their play and rest time. Sail On. Catch all next week.

[amolitor]

Fair enough!

> It has not been shown that when the CG is lower than the hull that there
> is any improvement in speed or stability.

Yes it has. This is simply not true. Putting the CG lower than the hull definitely improves stability. While lowering CG does not increase speed, having a deep high performance keel DOES improve speed in a SAILING vessel where leeway is an issue. Since deep keels are a good idea, and since it's helpful to have something on the bottom of the keel for turbulence issue (similar to winglets on an aircraft wing) it works out beautifully to put a big gob of heavy stuff in a nice smooth shape on the bottom of a deep keel.

In summary, a deep and heavy keel, in a sailboat, has definitely been shown to improve both stability and speed.

Powerboats do not need deep keels and their corresponding "lift" for lateral stabilty, since their drive is all forward. Sails push sideways a lot.

By the way, "lift" in this context does NOT mean vertical lift. It is a horizontal force generated by a variety of thing, in particular wing-like properties of the keel, which force counteracts the lateral (leeway-producing) force of the sails. It is referred to (confusingly) as "lift" by analogy with wings, not because it is vertical in nature.

Powerboats are not Sailboats.

[Skippy]

Originally Posted by amolitor

Powerboats are not Sailboats.

They're not?

Originally Posted by Spaghetto

How are the following statements?
It has not been shown that when the CG is lower than the hull that there is any improvement in speed or stability.
(etc.)

How about these statements Frank?
The world is flat.
Money groes on trees.
There is an Easter Bunny.
This is NOT the stupidest, most inane thread conceivable by the human mind.

[mighetto]

Originally Posted by frankofile

Frankie, if you don't even understand the fundamentals, how can you claim any expertise? You are a ***** of the highest order.

By the way, "ofile" doesn't mean I have anything but contempt for you. The o-file is the trash can where everything you say belongs. You confuse that with "ophile" because you assume, for some reason, that my spelling and grammar are as atrocious as yours are.

So you do not Love Me? So sad. BTW, I was at a meeting yesterday where with a word or two I might have eliminated Trip Gal from the Toliva Shoal race. (Lover is that you?) She and Mike H. have angered more than a few serious racers.

The sailing race game advances through protests. If you have a gripe you protest in a timely manner, the competitor's rating gets adjusted or the race rules are modified. But there is no progress or benefit to complaining about a Gig Harbor race last year, for example. That is unsportsman like conduct. Folks give up a lot of family time to organize races and do not need grief like that.

I was given "credit" for the Gal's electrolysis proplems. Please I would never do such a thing. But we all felt bad enough to let Trip Gal and Mike H alone.

They are telling their crew that they are not interested in Toliva Shoal probably because they know that the as-close-to-unsportsman-like conduct recently displayed, may get them banned. We mean to play well together - even if we dislike each other. Fan or Foe, you are a sailor, as am I. Hence we are mates and should try to behave that way. Tripp Gal, Tripp or Mike H. were asked simply to sign their posts. For that a professional sailor was called a little man and challenged to a fight. It need not be this way.

Lover, I will continue calling you lover, if a new boat purchaser doesn't even understand the fundamentals, how can they be allowed to purchase and operate a boat? The claim of expertise or lack there of does not make the new boat purchaser or me a ***** of the highest order. I have asked for help. Help or do not help. It is up to you to honor the sport or to dishonor it. Seriously, however, do you think your response will attract Corinthians?

[mighetto]

Skippy
How about these statements Frank?
The world is flat.

Thats a good one because it demonstrates a closed minded society in which you might be burned alive if you vocalized otherwise. The world is flat and Macgregor yachts are crap are similar statements.

Money grows on trees.

Oh JC. You do know I live in the pacific northwest. These trees are money.

There is an Easter Bunny.

This is an example of a theory that can not be disproved. Science advances by disproving theories just as the sailboat race game advances through protest. There is an Easter Bunny and there is God are theories that because it is impossible to disprove go beyond theory. They become philosophy or religon, not science. The sailing science isn't even close to that. But, we have a Church of FOYD because sail boat design in the US has taken on many aspects of a religion. A cult really where Cool Aid Kids will drink what ever they are told without checking out what is in the mix.

This is NOT the stupidest, most inane thread conceivable by the human mind.

Likely 4000 views by monday. I have been back only 8 days or so. There is something to this stupid thread. The Zen of Sailing? I have not even called the minions from Sailing Anarchy or the MacGregor Yachts boards. If nothing else, think of it as entertainment. But be aware. When we are done, I will be stating on my Cruising Log that the material was submited for review and in fact was reviewed by Boat design.net. You might take it all a wee bit seriously.

Frank L. Mighetto

[frankofile]

I have asked for help. Help or do not help. It is up to you to honor the sport or to dishonor it. Seriously, however, do you think your response will attract Corinthians?
Ha! There is no point to trying to help you. It has been tried before and you ignore whatever contradicts your ridiculous theories and spurn offers of help, sometimes quite rudely.

You're just ranting about protests and Toliva shoal, whatever that is. Very humorous in a sick and twisted sort of way, but not attractive to new comers.

[mighetto]

Originally Posted by frankofile

I have asked for help. Help or do not help. It is up to you to honor the sport or to dishonor it. Seriously, however, do you think your response will attract Corinthians?
Ha! There is no point to trying to help you. It has been tried before and you ignore whatever contradicts your ridiculous theories and spurn offers of help, sometimes quite rudely.

You're just ranting about protests and Toliva shoal, whatever that is. Very humorous in a sick and twisted sort of way, but not attractive to new comers.

So I missed and you are not Tripp Gal. Can't blame me for trying to figure out who my foes are. You are always welcome to post, even though you think I am not. Come on this thread is about my cruising log. Get real. Sad to realize you are not the Gal. Tripp Gal has a "morbid fascination" with the Mac26x. She will be upset when 50 X and Ms hit her home port Poulsbo, June 16th.

Hopefully you are a famous boat designer. The point I am trying to make is that EVERY BOAT PURCHASER is a defacto boat designer the moment they get a drill out. You do not really own the boat until you have designed and made your first modification. Do you disagree? If I must be a ***** like President Bush has been called well so be it. Get yourself another handle and please try again. Hey, its Friday. You and I need to get the sails ready for the week end. Have Fun. I will.