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[skinny boy]

Originally Posted by mighetto

If you touch its masthead to the water, will it come back up from that? I would be surprised.

Watch the video or read the brochure. The vessel comes right back, ballasted or unballasted. In fact we are forgoing divers for bottom work, prior to racing now, and draw down the boat to her side for bottom scrubbing. This was recommended in the owners manual. The only trick is to use the jib and not main haulyard. However, I do carry an extra 300 lbs of gear stowed low in the boat. The M has 300 lbs of solid ballast and it made sense to me.

Here is a picture of the "self-righting" capability of this boat. If it comes back up right then this accident would have never happened. You are of the lowest lifeform to continue to lie and slander people, even someone so irresponsible as to drink and operate a piece of trash boat. His biggest mistake was operating an unsafe boat and he will pay for that for 10 years. You need to stop the lies. You say it is all in fun. It isn't fun and I wonder if your employer knows you are using their assets to do this. Maybe a simple abuse complaint to the network admin will see how they feel about your use of government resources.

Funny to hear a "consultant" talk about a profession not requiring licensing. What is your certification number? You must be a certified consultant.

Originally Posted by mighetto

What the? See the calculator on http://www.eskimo.com/~mighetto/p11.htm. These boats can be expected to plane and do in normal wind fully ballasted. The same is true for the M. The math shows that both vessels are capable of breaking from displacement speed and reaching a true plane with the standard jibs. This is indicated by the displacement/length ratio being under 150. The X is significantly better at planing; her D/L is 137.59 vs the M's at 145.61. It probably will take abnormally strong wind (20 knots perhaps) for the M to plane fully ballasted where that potential in the X is evident in 12 knot winds, perhaps less depending on the point of sail. The X has a planing Dribbly style hull form. The M has more of a traditional rounded River sailboat form. But so what. Almost all of the US Sailing accredited schools teach you not to plane. This is my frustration with the training you get at US Sailing schools. Furthermore almost all of the buoy courses are purposefully designed so one can not plan in normal wind.

Now I blow you away. Rerun the calculations without the water ballast or with the Genoa. Suddenly you have Melges class.

D/L does not indicate any such wind range in which a boat will plane. It is not capable to calculating that you are simply lying. If you had a Melges class you would have a rating like a Melges but you don't, why because "you can put lipstick on a pig but it is still a pig". There is NO planing sailboat with a rating over 200. However there is a Mac26 with a rating over 200. Therefore there is no planing Mac26 without the use of an engine.

You punitive rating theory about a race where the boats in the cruising class (not eligible for the race overall awards) are allowed to use engines in order to make sure they can make the post race party is actually laughable and fun to read. No one gives a flip about a boat that runs its engine for all but 20 miles of a course. It is not even a competitor in the sailboat race it is a cruiser rally.

Originally Posted by mighetto

I have a sailing resume stronger than most and certainly more experience in a water ballasted machine than most.

Again with the lies. You have entered less than a dozen races and have yet to place despite the fact you have such a planing boat and a pig slow rating. You have no blue water experience. You have no distance experience under sail. You have no sailing resume.

The reason the captain of the motorsailer didn't want to raise the sails is owing, I suspect, to having one look at you and realizing that it would endanger the boat to allow you to touch anything.

[D'ARTOIS]

If it is a fact that the present production of the McGregor 26 alfabet is arrested, then it might have a solid reason for it.

Mighetto states that the boat should have ballasted when boarding with 11 persons.

Why? - The boat was matter of factly not sailing at the time of the unfortunate accident. You do not add waterballast to an already overloaded boat do you?

If i'll find a boat here in Holland with warning stickers/plaquards beyond the no smoking sign, such as is apparently the case with the Mc26 alfabet, I will redirect that particular boat to the scrapyard being unsafe at any operation.

With it's 50 Hp outboard it is a sportscruiser, outboard propelled blown up dinghy, no more than that. With such parameters you might capsize your overloaded boat in a sharp turn - as happened in this fatal accident.

Fatal accidents happen when a cumulation of small accidents - events - are piling up in a matter of seconds.
A rickety boat to start with, questionable design, unable operator, overloaded boat, drunk people on board, children trapped in the cabin and more to add.

Grace to its empty ballast-tank, the boat was still floating, however - the cause of the death of the two children is buried in the fact that the remaining persons on board failed to rescue the trapped children, save for one.
And, the clumsy move of the operator, to put the boat in a sharp turn, threw
the people overboard and did capsize the boat or at least did it turn over, throwing or jettonising the crew overboard.
In spite of all this, the act of putting this boat in a sharp turn did capsize it.

If the guy was not drunk and he had to make the same movement in order to avoid a collission with a floating object what then?

The result is nevertheless the same. Because the boat could not sustain a sudden change of direction wthout capsizing. Not at the operation speed anyway.

Is it therefore questionable to give such a vehicle the red flag?

[sorenfdk]

Originally Posted by skinny boy

Here is a picture of the "self-righting" capability of this boat. If it comes back up right then this accident would have never happened. You are of the lowest lifeform to continue to lie and slander people...

Thanks for bringing this picture. I was also wondering how Frank would explain this, but as I'm not chatting with him any more, I'm glad someone else brought it up.

Originally Posted by skinny boy

You must be a certified consultant.

He's certainly certified...

Originally Posted by skinny boy

The reason the captain of the motorsailer didn't want to raise the sails is owing, I suspect, to having one look at you and realizing that it would endanger the boat to allow you to touch anything.

Or maybe the captain knows Frank from forums like this...

[Skippy]

Originally Posted by sorenfdk

He's certainly certified....

D-Oh! Soren, good job, you beat me to it!

Originally Posted by D'ARTOIS

Is it therefore questionable to give such a vehicle the red flag?

First of all D'Artois, NOTHING in this thread is questionable except all Spaghetto's BS he keeps spewing. This is really just a BS thread, not a true sailboat design thread.
But seriously, I would say you're right. In fact, the M could actually be a half decent boat. But Spaghetto makes absurd and even dangerous claims about crossing oceans in the X, and McYachts makes overblown claims about it too. And the X really is a junky boat. So I consider anything we say in this thread fair and reasonable, except of course for Spaghetto.

[pkoken]

Maybe if we all chipped in a few bucks we could entice Mr. Mighetto to sail his robust cruising Mac26X to Hawaii from Seattle... A nice little ocean passage that conveniently outstrips the capacity of the fuel tank on the Mac26X.

Should he survive the ordeal and actually arrive at his destination (unlikely, he would survive because he turns around after he meets the open sea) I am guessing his blathering about the tremendous cruising capabilities of the Mac26X would forever silenced... of course if he didn't survive the same happy result would ensue.

[mighetto]

Originally Posted by pkoken

Maybe if we all chipped in a few bucks we could entice Mr. Mighetto to sail his robust cruising Mac26X to Hawaii from Seattle... A nice little ocean passage that conveniently outstrips the capacity of the fuel tank on the Mac26X.

Should he survive the ordeal and actually arrive at his destination (unlikely, he would survive because he turns around after he meets the open sea) I am guessing his blathering about the tremendous cruising capabilities of the Mac26X would forever silenced... of course if he didn't survive the same happy result would ensue.

For pay you could get many many sailors to sail a Mac26x to Hawaii, including myself, in season. However, I would have to be compensated for what I make from my shore based job. It would be expensive for the sponsor owing to that.

I do apprieciate others taking up the slack on this thread. This new project with three new fellows to work into will be taking some time from my Internet banter (many will say Huzzah - eh)

Old Business

Murrelet, my Mac26x, was insured for all waters in the Western Hemisphere through policy 70054 77 02 from Mid-Century Insurance Company. In 2003 that company decided to extend the same coverage I had to boats up to 40 foot. I suspect they were swamped with new business. Owing to insurance rules in Washington State, probably involving required reserves, I was notified by my agent (# 79 26 362) that Mid-Century was no longer able to provide service. I later was lead to believe that registering my vessel in Michigan would allow me to keep the same policy. But my current policy from Foremost, while slightly more expensive than the Mid-Century policy ($310 per year) than the Mid-Century one in 2003 meets my current cruising plans. This policy covers Murrelet for Coastal Ocean Cruising (which is actually more dangerous than ocean crossing) up to 200 miles off the coasts of the US and Canada. Here is the exact wording regarding territory from the Mid-Century Insurance Company plan. page 3

12. Territory. This policy applies only to accidents, occurances, and losses during the policy period shown in the Declarations which occur within the limits of the Western Hemisphere.

Catalina 27s? have circumnavigated. The Mac26x already has the storage compartment bulkheads that those circumnavigators added for that work. I need to note that the polcy from US Boat is not adequate for my needs because it specifically excludes the west side of vancouver island. I am told that those who want to cruise the wild side might be able to get a rider at the cost of a higher deductable. In anycase, it appears that sail boats over 40 foot are difficult to insure these days. Be aware of that if you are crewing or thinking of a purchase. It appears that the larger sailing craft are unable to make use of MOST all weather harbors at least when they are needed the most. Hence, they get battered even at anchor, by storms and suffer more damages. That would not apply to larger centerboarders (including multihulls) of course.

[mighetto]

Skinny,
Here is a picture of the "self-righting" capability of this boat. If it comes back up right then this accident would have never happened.

The hatches on the vessel in the picture were not closed and the vessel was swamped owing to operator error. When an operator is drunk and the vessel is firing rockets from the open bow hatch with 11 people and at least a dog aboard on the 4th of July - in otherwords when the boat is operated like a war boat by a fellow thinking he is Rambo, probably in a race to the public docks, any vessel could have been so swamped.

You are of the lowest lifeform to continue to lie and slander people, even someone so irresponsible as to drink and operate a piece of trash boat. His biggest mistake was operating an unsafe boat and he will pay for that for 10 years. You need to stop the lies. You say it is all in fun. It isn't fun and I wonder if your employer knows you are using their assets to do this. Maybe a simple abuse complaint to the network admin will see how they feel about your use of government resources.

I now must remind folks that threats such as the above fall into the definition of Terrorism. Internet Terrorism is a serious ofence. I take it seriously and would like to know who Skinny is so that I can take appropriate action. FYI a death threat is a fellony. Oh lets just say the above is a gag and let it go OK with that Skinny?

Funny to hear a "consultant" talk about a profession not requiring licensing. What is your certification number? You must be a certified consultant.

I am granfathered into a group that has awarded me a Certified Computer Professional designation. In this group it is well recognized that no one really has more than 5 years of relevant experience. I suspect now that computers are such a big part of boat design that this is also true for professional boat designers. I do try to keep up. My Master's degree is in Health Care Administration, not truely Business. It is more government oriented. But there is a profesional managers association and I think they do certifications.

D/L does not indicate any such wind range in which a boat will plane. It is not capable to calculating that you are simply lying. If you had a Melges class you would have a rating like a Melges but you don't, why because "you can put lipstick on a pig but it is still a pig". There is NO planing sailboat with a rating over 200. However there is a Mac26 with a rating over 200. Therefore there is no planing Mac26 without the use of an engine.

My understanding of the D/L ratio is book learning. The manufacturer of the Mac26x will tell you she planes. The manufacturer of the Melges may tell you she planes. Manufacturers get to define planing just as they define what a deck salone is. But for advertising claims, you need that D/L ratio.

The Melges also have trouble with PHRF ratings. Any planing boat does. But the single greatest explanation for why Mac26x vessels are not raced more frequently is that until last year they had to be raced fully ballasted. This meant that the boat had to be configured for heavy weather racing even on a light wind day. You can not get enough crew on board to lean the boat enough when so configured to the lee to gravity fill the sails. The vessel is that stable fully ballasted - and docile. This means the boat was in effect not racable in PHRF, except on the rare days when there was more than 12 knots of wind. There just are not enough race days like that to bother putting a number on the sail. You have to be allowed to race as the manufacturer intended (unballasted) on most race days. Seriously, the boat is not racable otherwise - the commitee boat would be waiting all night.

You punitive rating theory about a race where the boats in the cruising class (not eligible for the race overall awards) are allowed to use engines in order to make sure they can make the post race party is actually laughable and fun to read. No one gives a flip about a boat that runs its engine for all but 20 miles of a course. It is not even a competitor in the sailboat race it is a cruiser rally.

You just are not getting it. The Mac26x does not carry enough fuel to make much distance at either displacement or planing speed. She has to be sailed. My theory is that Lady Katie Too! used the motor to assist in cresting her bow wake which is needed for sailing at planing speeds.

Again with the lies. You have entered less than a dozen races and have yet to place despite the fact you have such a planing boat and a pig slow rating. You have no blue water experience. You have no distance experience under sail. You have no sailing resume.

Well I am the new kid. And believe it or not, I am trying to behave like the new kid. Murrelet would have placed third in one of the races she has completed if she were rated for cruising class. I have yet to race with a spinnaker or outside of cruising class but I am rated to do so and look forward to that day. AGAIN - THESE ARE NOT RACE BOATS. Please, a vessel rated under 200 will always finish before a Mac26x. She should not place, however, more often than a Mac26x, after times are corrected. The vessel is very racable (at least in PHRF-NW) now that dropping water ballast during a race is allowed. FYI the Strait of Georga is listed as the 4th most treacherous body in the world by some of the "blue water experienced" and the west side of Vancouver Island has some of the largest waves recorded off season. These are my cruising grounds. Perhaps yours as well. I think that fact qualifies for blue water experience. Ocean Crossing experience I do not have. I have never spent a night in jail either and actively seek neither experience.

The reason the captain of the motorsailer didn't want to raise the sails is owing, I suspect, to having one look at you and realizing that it would endanger the boat to allow you to touch anything.

I was about to offer cash. The only english speaker affiliated with the Samba, made a big deal out of the fact that the Samba was "OUR" boat during the 300 naughtical miles. But I certainly wouldn't touch something like a sail without getting the Captains OK. We asked almost ever day. There was always some excuse. I recomend if others do something similar they put it into the charter contract that sails must be set during the voyage.

[skinny boy]

Using government assets for this activity is an act of fraud. There is no threat to report the abuse. In fact it is the responsibility of every citizen to ensure that the government uses its resources for the work intended. You are the one commiting a crime. The next post I see on any board from you will be reported to the State of Washington. You threatening tone is abusive and you are using government resources as a contractor for inapproariate purposes and I suspect you are billing the time you spend here as consulting time. Owing to my civic duty I you will know exactly who I am as I will sign the compaint to the state.

[mighetto]

Using government assets for this activity is an act of fraud. There is no threat to report the abuse. In fact it is the responsibility of every citizen to ensure that the government uses its resources for the work intended. You are the one commiting a crime. The next post I see on any board from you will be reported to the State of Washington. You threatening tone is abusive and you are using government resources as a contractor for inapproariate purposes and I suspect you are billing the time you spend here as consulting time. Owing to my civic duty I you will know exactly who I am as I will sign the compaint to the state.

Sorry Skinny. I have authorizaton - in writing. Admit now that Sailing Anarchy has been banned from all government computers owing to nudity. I have not been able to confirm this but suspect it true. Have meeting must go. Sail On.

[amolitor]

mighetto probably isn't a contractor at anything, skinny boy. He's probably unemployed at the moment. Remember the other day when he 'had to go, dentist appointment' and yet kept on posting until or around 5pm?

Do not assume anything he says here is true. While it is possible he has a job, there is no reason to assume it is the job he claims it is.

Note that he's still quoting the 'Sailing Anarchy has been banned from all government computers' AFTER the direct quotes and links to SA showing clearly that it's mighetto himself who got banned. mighetto is unwilling to admit to one shred of reality in this context. Not only does he deny reality in the physical world, he denies the reality here -- he denies the content of posts made hours in the past.

Watch closely. His meeting will be eerily short, because he's gonna reply to this pretty soon. Or perhaps he'll claim to be replying FROM the meeting.

[Skippy]

Originally Posted by skinny boy

You are of the lowest lifeform to continue to lie and slander people, even someone so irresponsible as to drink and operate a piece of trash boat. His biggest mistake was operating an unsafe boat and he will pay for that for 10 years. You need to stop the lies. You say it is all in fun. It isn't fun and I wonder if your employer knows you are using their assets to do this. Maybe a simple abuse complaint to the network admin will see how they feel about your use of government resources.

Originally Posted by Spaghetto

I now must remind folks that threats such as the above fall into the definition of Terrorism. Internet Terrorism is a serious ofence. I take it seriously and would like to know who Skinny is so that I can take appropriate action. FYI a death threat is a fellony. Oh lets just say the above is a gag and let it go

Frank that's the most disgusting thing I've ever seen you or anyone else post. For you to compare a responsible notification of the authorities, to the tragic deaths of thousands of people, whose lives were cut short by coldblooded killers. What a shameful, heartless, unpatriotic thing for you to say. Your comparing a simple complaint of your abuse to the inhuman crimes of 9/11, is a form of intimidation. sb is right Frank, you are the one lying, and now even intimidating people who consider reporting your slanders. Your reference to death threats in response to a proper, lawful action, is itself closer to anything even resembling terrorism, than anything sb or anyone else in this forum has ever posted. Your threatening post is just sickening, and I can't imagine why this or any other forum would ever tolerate it.

[skinny boy]

Originally Posted by mighetto

Using government assets for this activity is an act of fraud. There is no threat to report the abuse. In fact it is the responsibility of every citizen to ensure that the government uses its resources for the work intended. You are the one commiting a crime. The next post I see on any board from you will be reported to the State of Washington. You threatening tone is abusive and you are using government resources as a contractor for inapproariate purposes and I suspect you are billing the time you spend here as consulting time. Owing to my civic duty I you will know exactly who I am as I will sign the compaint to the state.

Sorry Skinny. I have authorizaton - in writing. Admit now that Sailing Anarchy has been banned from all government computers owing to nudity. I have not been able to confirm this but suspect it true. Have meeting must go. Sail On.

Then it won't be a problem and the person who gave you permission will be terminated as they have violated state law. Somehow I think there is no permission but will certainly allow the state admin to sort that out. I suggest that meeting should last indefinitely.

[mistral]

Originally Posted by mistral

to all guys except Mighetto, Please stop posting here. Frankie will cover us with his BS as long as somenone will keep on posting. My advice is not to post anymore and to erase all your previous post; this will make Frank lose interest in plaguing this thread and, i hope, this forum; it's a pain for me to see how many clever people lose their time trying to deal with mighetto's absurd theories and statements; simply he won't listen to you nor to anyone else, so Please stop posting here

Mistral

i wrote down this few words a couple of days ago; now you have the proofs ot what i was talkin' about; Mighetto will keep on writing as long as someone care about him on this forum; it's clear that he's an unuseful subject for everyone in this forum, so why don't we simply ignore him???? I find no reasons to keep this thread alive!!!

fair wind
Mistral

[mighetto]

Originally Posted by skinny boy

Then it won't be a problem and the person who gave you permission will be terminated as they have violated state law. Somehow I think there is no permission but will certainly allow the state admin to sort that out. I suggest that meeting should last indefinitely.

Oh back off will you? Washington state has its own problems with the identification of its governor. If I could, I would verify if the Department of Information Services has cut off Sailing Anarchy for nudity or not. Clearly looking at nudes is verboten by state policy. This is often a problem with new and imature web sites. But otherwise, those with Internet access are allowed access to any site - even for a business purpose, as long as the conflict of interest paper work, has been completed. That is definately true for salaried and contract employees. For hourly as well, at least in every shop I have worked with in the state. Of course Internet use is monitored. Why do you wish me harm. What did I ever do to you?

[mighetto]

Originally Posted by mistral

i wrote down this few words a couple of days ago; now you have the proofs ot what i was talkin' about; Mighetto will keep on writing as long as someone care about him on this forum; it's clear that he's an unuseful subject for everyone in this forum, so why don't we simply ignore him???? I find no reasons to keep this thread alive!!!

fair wind
Mistral

Oh come on Mistral. Did I not provide information good for the cause of all in the form of insurance policy data? Am I as bad as a multihuller? Monohullers are capable of handling the truth today because those before me, the multihullers, took most of the flame. My treatment has been relatively mild in comparison. There are some acomplished sailors that will never post on the Internet again - even on a club BBS because of how fellows like you treated them. Boat design.net is not a close circle of the closed minded. Why try to orchestrate that?