How do you check Sails?

[Bqman]

I've been looking at a few boats and people on this site and other places have always said to survey the sails. I can't afford a surveyor since I'm only looking for boats for less than $5000 so it wouldn't be worth the time and money for either of us. Basically, when I look at boats, I check for leaks and astetics. People suggest to look at sails but I don't know what to look for, and I don't know how to check for soft spots either. What else should I pay attention to while shopping for used sailboats?

[Raggi_Thor]

You can look for "wear and tear". That will give an indication on how much they have been used. If you get to sail the boat you can of course look at the shape.

[longliner45]

as Raggi says look for wear and tear ,,also smell for mold and fungus ,,and it dont hurt to give it the ( givitalyagot test ) and try like hell to tear it

[PAR]

Sail shape is pretty difficult for an inexperienced eye to judge, but an experienced hand can see a stretched out sail as soon as it's pulled reasonably taunt (doesn't have to be on a mast, I've done it with a dock line and a pole).

A good indication of sail condition are the batten pockets, which get plenty of abuse. Look for chaff, repairs, broken stitches, etc. Look for wear on slide attachments, corner reinforcement, headboard, clew and tack cringles. Pay special attention to bolt rope luff sleeves and leach tension sleeves too. Try to eye ball the stitching all over the sail. Good ones will have tight holes and lay down neat and uniform, with worn out stitches looking frayed and the holes (in the sail fabric) showing signs of elongation.

Speaking of sails, John, your plans are in route.

[charmc]

Originally Posted by Bqman

Basically, when I look at boats, I check for leaks and astetics. People suggest to look at sails but I don't know what to look for, and I don't know how to check for soft spots either. What else should I pay attention to while shopping for used sailboats?

You've already gotten some very good advice on inspecting sails. For the rest: Check for soft spots on any wood in the boat. Try to push a knife blade in with moderate force; sound wood will feel hard, blade should only go in 1/8" (2-3mm) or so max, soft spots are just that, the blade will go in easily. You can knock on the wood also, soft areas (rot) will sound very dull compared to good wood. Look for bubbles on glass hulls, could be signs of moisture getting inside the hull. A well kept boat will look good; your looking at the aesthetics will give you a gut feel for whether it was well maintained. If you have doubts, stay away. There are always a lot of boats for sale.

Good luck!

[Mychael]

More on sails. Look where the crease lines are, where the sails have been folded. These can be one of the early places to get weakend. If you can lay out the entire sail on flat ground. Sails are designed in such a way as to resist tearing but can have small wear holes or tiny short tears in them.
These can all be patched with special adhesive material designed for sails. It'll give you some more life out of a tired sail.
If the boat is fibreglass look for little blister in the gelcoat.
Make sure all the halyards run smoothly, if the boat has not had much use then rollers/sheves can get stiff or sieze.
Try the winches,they should not feel "draggy" when you turn them by grabbing the body. The rachets should be heard clicking in quickly and sharply.

Mychael

[Bqman]

Originally Posted by charmc

Check for soft spots on any wood in the boat. Try to push a knife blade in with moderate force; sound wood will feel hard, blade should only go in 1/8" (2-3mm) or so max,
Good luck!

Wouldn't the owner get mad if I make knife marks or cut up his wood? And is this for wooden sailboat only?

Originally Posted by longliner45

it dont hurt to give it the ( givitalyagot test ) and try like hell to tear it

Again, wouldn't the owner not be pleased if he sees me trying to rip apart his sails?

[Mychael]

Personlly, I would give the timber a hard tap with the handle of a screwdriver. Listen for the sound. Wood rotted inside will have different sound to good solid timber.

Sail material does get more brittle as it ages the effect of UV weakens it. If it is to the stage where it could rip by hand I would think it would be showing other signs of ageing. My own sails are still quite functional and I had to put adhesive patches on a few places where there were little holes and in one case a small tear.

Old sails are always a bit of a gamble. I accept mine as they are 'cos at this stage I do no more then overnight trips. If I do suffer a major failure of a sail I could safely motor home.

Whatever you purchase you naturally want it to be safe and functional, but in the context of it being your first boat to learn on and (I assume) mainly for shorter day sails then you could perhaps accept some compromises in exchange for money savings.

If the boat has safety rails fitted, check for cracking around the base of the stanchions(posts). Also if it is fitted with an alloy toe-rail check for obvious corrosion along the edges of it. If you can see it there then for sure it will be worse were you cannot see it where the stanchions are bolted on.

Mychael

[Mychael]

Just as an aside to illustrate how you need to look at a lot of boats to get some ideas of condition/price ratio. I just recently went to see a boat on behalf of a mate of mine.
It was the same size and design as my own. About 4 yrs difference in the ages. They were asking $9,000 more then what I paid for mine!!. In some ways it was a better boat, paint was better, sails were newer, interior a bit "fresher". However it has a smaller motor, the electrical system was more basic, carried less fuel and water, obvious heavy corrosion in the toerails, cracked stanchions.
It was a "swings and roundabouts" situation. I use the example just to illustrate how it becomes very hard for anyone to precisely say to you if a boat is a good purchase proposition or not.

There were many other "better/worse" things in that boat I looked at. I just gave you some as examples, there are so many items on a boat to look at and compare. Still I reckon half the fun in the buying is the shopping first.

Mychael

[seo]

Inspecting sails "in the bag" is really hard to do. When you say $5,000 boat, I assume it to be 20-26' 1960-1975 years. Assuming that it has dacron sails, then I'd find a place (gym floor at the school, conference room at the motel, like that) where the sail can be stretched out flat. Go over every seam, and pay particular attention to the headboard and batten pockets. On a jib, check where the sail rubs on spreader tips and on the bow pulpit. Stains (and even mildew) don't seem to weaken dacron.
One way to get a little more time out of a middle-aged sail is to convert a wire luff rope to dacron. The bit of stretchiness in the dacron allows you to use the halyard (or Cunningham) to stretch the luff, which tends to flatten the sail and pull the draft forward.
It's amazing how much more fun sailing is with a good sail.
seo

[Bqman]

Thanks Mychael and Seo. It is hard to judge the price of a boat and I'm pretty sure I'm going to end up overpaying for my first boat. You're right Seo about the boat. I'm looking for a 21-23 ft boat. Any year as long as it's within the budget. The thing is, I know I'm going to have to do some work on the boat, I'm not going to get a pristene condition boat for cheap. But how much work. I looked at a boat today. It has a 4 hp Yachtwin and trailer. But it needs a gel coat, paint and the wood in the interior is rotted. $5000 is the limit with repairs. So if I can get a boat for $3500, then that leaves $1500 for repairs. The guy wants $4000 and I'm not sure if that's reasonable. It does seem like a nice boat except for those problems. I mentioned a 23' Columbia, 1973 for $3500 and most people think that was a rip off. But most of the boats I've looked at were pretty much the same. So now I'm confused.

[Mychael]

Mate if it needs gel coat, paint and woodwork, then unless your a very handy or persisent (or both) handyman then that will end in tears. Sure bet.
May I make a suggestion? Well I will anyway lol.
Downsize. Stop trying to find boats in the 21-23 foot range.. Start looking in the 18-20 foot sizes.. I think you'll find prices are better.
Quite possible the boats could be bondwood construction. Nothing wrong with that, my mates "Young 5.7" is a pearler. He got it for $4000. it needed a tidy up but was sound, all the trailer needed was wheel bearings.. THe boat is a bilge keeler.. Admitedly he had to fork out another $1,600 for a new outboard but I reckon overall he did very well.
Sure a smaller boat will limit you a bit more but your just starting out, your not planning on crossing oceans this week.

Mychael

[PAR]

Find a boat guy, preferably one that has some age and considerable experience. By him several beers and make friends, then take him along when he sobers up. Would you by a run down, old house without an inspection, a well used car, without your mechanic looking it over or an old boat with limited understanding and experience? If so, I have some land a few hundred miles south of here I'd like to discuss with you. I don't mean to be quite so coy, but you're clearly looking at things, that have issues over your current comprehension. This will change, you'll get to know these systems, methods, repairs types and procedures, but in the mean time, you need some help.

This can best be done through someone you can trust or by buying a boat in much better condition then you've been looking at (read bigger budget). If you're like me, the budget isn't going to change dramatically, so you need a buddy to help you out. I had a buddy call me today to help him lift a cast iron, claw footed tub back into his freshly remodeled upstairs bathroom. He needed a friend. Okay, I didn't have to have any special knowledge of old (heavy as hell) iron bath tubs, but he understood he couldn't do it himself. You're in the same boat or tub, depending on how you'd like to look at it.

[charmc]

Originally Posted by Bqman

Wouldn't the owner get mad if I make knife marks or cut up his wood? And is this for wooden sailboat only?

I probably wasn't as clear as I could have been. As Mychael said, do the knocking or rapping first. Rap any and all wood; most older (your price range) fiberglass boats in the 18-22' range will have some wood: hatches, cockpit coaming, perhaps the cabin or even decking. Anyway, the knife test is to verify rot in areas that sound dull or dead when you rap them. Line the blade up with the grain, not across it. If the wood is sound, the small slit will hardly be noticeable. If the wood is soft, it will need to be repaired/replaced anyway. If an owner will not let you perform any tests on the boat to determine its soundness, do as Monty Python said, "Run awaaaaaay!"

Seriously, there's another good suggestion by PAR: find and befriend someone with a reputation for boat knowledge and enlist his/her aid. The cost of a case of beer, a good bottle of whatever, or dinner in a good restaurant, will be a good investment, and watching him/her go over a boat or two will be a great education for you. Or give a call to a surveyor. Fees vary with the size and complexity of a boat, you might find that a survey of a small sailboat won't be more than a few hundred dollars -- a great value.

Someone suggested you lower your size range to include boats below 20'. Might be a good idea, as you'll get more for your money, trailering will be a bit easier, and so on. That made me think of 2 suggestions for a beginning sailor, a Cape Dory Typhoon (19'), or an O'Day 19'. The Cape Dory Typhoon, in particular, is a beauty to look at, with sweet, graceful lines. More importantly, the Typhoon is well known for rugged construction and ease of sailing in both light and heavy winds. The O'day 19' (older ones may be called Rhodes 19') is a bit lighter and more modern looking than the Typhoon. That's neither good nor bad, just different. The O'day is most commonly seen with a centerboard, while the Typhoon usually (possibly always) has a shallow keel. Both are trailerable, and both have been popular with sailboat rental fleets, meaning they are easy to sail and can take abuse. Pricing for either can run from $2,000-$5,000, with a few above and below that range.

Hopefuly, all this information is helping you get a feel for what you might find in your budget range. I saw in another thread that you were asking why it isn't easier to get "book values" for boats like cars. The reason it is not is that the number of boats in the world is only about 1% of the number of cars, and 75% of that 1% are small powerboats. Even stock boats will be equipped and used differently by their owners: One may use the boat on a freshwater lake, only sailing for a few hours a month, between May and August, in light winds only. Another owner might have sailed his/her boat 6-8 months out of the year, in a bay or on the ocean, and enjoyed sailing in heavy weather. One boat might show more wear than the other, but the heavy use guy might have maintained the boat well, so it might be in excellent condition also. One final word here: Buying a smaller boat will increase your chances of getting one in better condition, with more equipment, etc. in the same price range. A smaller boat in good condition will let you spend more time sailing, cost you less overall, and allow you to move up in size when you are ready, with a lot more experience under your belt.