help ... swing keel problem?

[Sail 121]

I am going to look at a Grampian 23 tomorrow (12/31/02). The owner tells me that the swing keel (cast iron) is stuck in the upward position. Could this be a 'costly' problem? The boat is priced very reasonably.
Don K (sail 121)

[ErikG]

That question is close to impossible to answer!

It depends on how/why it's stuck, hydraulics or mechanical means to adjust the keel. Is it stuck because the boat has grounded?

Without knowing the type of boat specifically I definitely wouldn't buy it, until I'd had it surveyed buy a qualified marine surveyor.

When buying a damaged boat there's always a (pretty big) risk that the costs to fix the damage is a lot more than anticipated.

OTOH, if the buy is really a bargain it might be worth the risk, but if you feel the least insecure about it, have it surveyed!

Good luck!

Erik

[yipster]

Don,

still december 30 2002 here, i second Erik's opinion strongly, have it surveyed by an expert!

yipster

[Lew Morris]

An old German farmer south of town said my friend could have her for free if he hauled her away before the end of the month, otherwise his son was going to cut her up and haul the pieces to the dump. He said he needed the space for an asparagus patch....

Since she was sitting on her keel, and there was no trailer, we called a local wrecker service that had a tilt-bed car hauler, and winched her up.

The real fun started once we got her up on the hard. You guessed it, the keel was stuck, and not only from sitting on her keel for two years. Over the years water had found its way into the faired keel and it had rusted... to the point where the steel had so severely swollen that it had firmly wedged itself into the keel well.

Having, thusfar, invested a whole $55 in the wrecker service (and hence the boat), we weren't about to abandon her. Subsequently we spent two whole weekends pounding that keel out of the hull... taking turns (insided the hull, through a hole we cut in the centerboard case) using a three foot long, 1" diameter, steel bar as a hammer. If you can visualize Popeye's forearms you will know how we felt.

We were able to minimize damage to the inside surface of the case, and the hammer-bar hole was easily repaired. One of my other mates and I are fiberglass fabricators (by trade) so we were willing volunteers in our friend's project, but it otherwise have been a very costly undertaking for him.

Need I say more.....?

[Polarity]

Ouch! - I bet the neighbours loved you too!

Of course the Grampian might just have a bunch of grit in there,... tap lightly and mind your toes!

[m_j_malone]

Originally Posted by Sail 121

I am going to look at a Grampian 23 tomorrow (12/31/02). The owner tells me that the swing keel (cast iron) is stuck in the upward position. Could this be a 'costly' problem? The boat is priced very reasonably.
Don K (sail 121)

I now own a Grampian 23. I thought it had a fixed keel then I got
under the trailer and noted there was what appeared to be a fiberglas
keel inside it, a swing-keel judging by the radius at the front when
retracted. I noted a drive-nut by the tiller and looked up inside the
cargo hatch and sure enough there is a winch-like thing hooked to the
nut. At the take-up side of the winch there is a metal tube that
runs down, taking smooth curves along the inside of the hull forward
to the keel area. I pulled up a section of the salon floor and sure
enough it turns and goes down to the keel.

My problem is, I am not sure the keel will stay up. I do not know if
there is a spring or anything, whether the cable pulls it up or pivots
it down (the second would require a spring but would make it fail-safe
if the cable broke). It is sitting on its keel on the trailer so there is
no way to get it out. I was thinking of launching near a good beach
and swimming under to see if there is any chance it will come down.

I am guessing there is a putty-ed over access hatch on the side of
the cast-iron fixed part of the keel to access the hinge bolt of the
fin.

Anyone know for sure?

Thanks,

Matt

[PAR]

You have a centerboard with a drum and cable winch to LIFT the board clear. It's a very rare bird the other way around, though I've seen a few drawings that looked pretty silly.

There are many reasons the board could be stuck, some easy to fix others a real pain in the ass. The best thing you can do is float the boat off the trailer and motor, tow or walk it to a reasonably sheltered location (waves, wind and such) and start trying the winch. See if it will unspool, even just a bit of cable. Rock the boat, beat on the case (the thing the board lives in) beat on the winch, if you can get some movement then you'll most likely have an easier time of it.

If all your efforts can't get the thing to budge, then load her up on the trailer and start grinding away at the pin location (it will be at the front of the board) usually the putty job over the pin isn't as good as the rest of the glass work, making finding it easier. dig, grind and otherwise uncover the pin. Unbolt or drive it out. But, first remove the cable from the winch or board top (preferred) if you can.

The cable is probably spent anyway and note the top of the case where the cable goes in, if there is a similar putty job as the pin. A lot of manufactures have an access hole filled with the guide tube and putty so that a new centerboard lanyard can be attached. Chip, grind and beat at this area until the hole is big enough to put a drift (real stout bar) through and have it land on the top, aft edge of the centerboard. Now beat the hell out of the drift, concentrating on keeping the drift on the board, not wedging it between the case side and the board. You want to drive the board down. Cuss a lot and have some beer and friends on hand to spell you at the bashing.

If this doesn't work, you have a real problem. I've sometimes had luck using hand saws along side the board, up through the slot. Make as deep a swath with it down each side as you can and try to drive it free from above again.

Odds are you have a cast iron board with a glass surround to provide a foil shape to it. The iron has rusted, swollen inside the glass sheathing and is wedged tight against the case which may also be of cast iron. You don't want to break the case by prying the slot wider. The board will have to be shaved, cut, burned or otherwise made narrow enough to fall out.

A custom saws-all blade may be the ticket, you see the fiberglass cuts easily with general wood working tools, but the iron is tough stuff.

That boat can't weight much more then a couple of thousand pounds. An old oak tree and a chain fall will snatch her off the trailer and drop her onto some home made stands, where the centerboard is free to drop down once it's able to. Make the stands high enough to work under. Most real marine chandleries sell stands for about a hundred bucks a pop. You'll want the angled stands not he straight leg ones (they're for powerboats) and four will be needed. You could resell them to the local marina when you're done, if they don't get to dinged up. You can make them easily enough, just plan them out and over build them a bit. 2x6's are good for this, a simple "X" brace with legs and a cross piece, placed for and aft with a long piece of lumber or two on each side to keep them from falling over. Make it stout enough to be safe working under it.

If all else fails there are other options, but you don't want to hear about them yet (trust me) . . .

[m_j_malone]

Originally Posted by PAR

You have a centerboard with a drum and cable winch to LIFT the board clear. It's a very rare bird the other way around, though I've seen a few drawings that looked pretty silly.

There are many reasons the board could be stuck,

....

.

Thank you Par. There is no cable in my centerboard winch anymore.
I am guessing it rusted and broke off down near the swing keel.

What you said makes everything I saw make sense now. The front
edge of the fin is split open like it has swollen from inside.

I had never guessed the keel would be steel with glass cladding.
That will make it a lot heavier than I had guessed. First, I had
better be more careful than I had imagined that it does not fall
on me -- I was thinking of dropping the fin on the bottom at a
beach where it would be easy to haul out. Second, it is more
important that I get it unstuck because it will make a much
bigger difference to the stability of the boat.

Thanks again Par,

Matt