Hartley TS 16 (again)

[Bigfork]

(It's a 'double post'. I put it in the wooden build thread too but wanted to get the topic closer to the surface...is that a "no-no"?)

Ostlind will think I'm crazy, but I think I've made up my mind. I don't need a hopped up trimaran. I already have a Laser and a wet (and cold) fired up Hobie 16. Budget dictates that I don't need hopped up sport tri, I already have the wet and fast H-16. I need a little cabin cruiser for the Mrs and I that still has some snort for sport. I've spent months getting to this decision and wavered all over the place in the meanwhile. I also don't want a lead belly slug. I still want to build, regardless of model. The i550 sport boat looks amazing, but doesn't make for good camping and looks a little wet. I want to push my sailing season open a few months on either end of winter without donning drysuits. Hence, my latest inter-web discovery: The Hartley TS 16.

I've now spent days looking at everything Hartley. I really like everything about the boat! Whatever I do, it won't be happening soon, but it doesn't hurt to research and ask all the foreseeable questions I can. I like the community out there. There are many builder's blogs in action with lots of good info and pics to match. I sail in Flathead Lake, Montana, USA. There are likely a handful of these boats kickin around, but there is no active class to my knowledge. Class racing is not my goal. Don't get me wrong; I still want to go fast, but also want something that's beach-able and can squeeze two people, a cooler, and some gear below.

There are claims that the boat will plane at optimum wind and can even beat bigger boats like a Catalina 22, and the like. My Laser will plane, I know what planing means. But a design from the 60's that can sleep two and has some get-up-and-go...is it true? The boat can be built for 5-8000$ or less? Seems cheaper than the i550.

Any folks out there have intimate knowledge of this craft or know someone who does. I'm a timber-frame home builder when not teaching art. I like the looks of the traditional Hartley, but am also attracted to it's claims for speed. The bow seems a little portly (a reflection of it's design age). I like the lines of the transom. Will it point at all? The lake I sail on, Flathead, can make some good fetch (5 footers) and can have the feeling of a body of water much larger. It also has wonderful bays and quiet hidden coves. A boat with a covered minimalist cabin, a low budget, and a speed tick all have me thinking that this is a nifty craft. As a home-build project, I would likely waver a little on the "trueness" of a class build in favor of personal aesthetics and utility.

I have a handful of preliminary questions regarding the build and would love to pester the willing mind. The Hartley forum is good too, but I want to hear the opinion of some stateside people. The forum is all kiwis and aussies. I think the Hartley 16 is the largest class in the down-under.

Thanks...

[Paul B]

Originally Posted by Bigfork

Hence, my latest inter-web discovery: The Hartley TS 16.

I've now spent days looking at everything Hartley. I really like everything about the boat!

There are claims that the boat will plane at optimum wind and can even beat bigger boats like a Catalina 22, and the like. My Laser will plane, I know what planing means. But a design from the 60's that can sleep two and has some get-up-and-go...is it true? The boat can be built for 5-8000$ or less? Seems cheaper than the i550.

Thanks...

I doubt you will find any Hartleys in the USA.

You mention the Cat 22. It will also plane. Would I bet a Hartley 16 is faster than a Cat 22 all around? No.

There are plenty of examples of Cat 22s here in the USA selling for less than $2K. I've seen some at less than $1K.

So the question is, do you spend $5K+ and a year or so of your spare time to build a Hartley, something that would have almost no resale value in the USA? Or do you buy a used Cat22 for less than half the price, spend your time enjoying time on the lake, and selling it for about what you paid when you are finished with it?

[CT 249]

For a speed comparison, under the Australian CBH system (similar to PHRF but time on time) here's the following ratings'

Catalina 22 - .633
Catalina 25 - .650
INt Dragon keelboat (for comparison) .709
Hartley TS 16 - .646
Holland 25 (similar to Kiwi 24) .700
Macgregor 26 .725 (not the Mac 26 Powersailer)
RL 24 swing keel - .719
Usual 20 .715

The Dragon, Catalinas, Mac , Kiwi and (I think) Rl24 sk have PHRF ratings so you can check comparative speed.

The i550 was originally conceived for the Micro Cup class which is popular in Europe. Micros here rate about .675. The i550s here have been uprigged and seem to rate much faster (.800 ish) and can beat a J/24 type, which would rate about .760 on CBH.

Bear in mind that the TS16 is a popular OD and therefore the ratings are set off well-sailed boats with nothing kept down below, no engines, immaculate gear and highly tuned.

The Usual 20 is an interesting boat that could fit you; I know I want one! It's a version of the Australian Sharpie dinghy, which is itself a lightened and re-rigged version of a skinny '30s German lake boat. The Sharpie, with one trap and three crew, is a very popular boat (more popular than the skiffs despite the hype) that goes the same speed as a 505 and about as quick as an FD. The Usual is a Sharpie hull with more freeboard and beam and a little cabin top. They are many miles from me, but one would guess they'd be no harder to build than a TS16, have more space, and they're certainly a lot quicker. Minimum weight is 611 lb plus a 222 lb centreboard. See

http://www.largsbay.yachting.org.au/?Page=39171

[captainsideburn]

I've sailed a few hartleys and their are heaps of them around where I live, all getting pretty old in the tooth.
The main disadvantage to me seems to be the weight, they're not a light boat comparatively these days, although with a good trailer they can be set up and launched by 2.
But they are surprisingly quick for their size.
If looking to build something that size and with a cabin I would be looking for something newer.
Check out welsfords Sweatpea
http://www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz/plans/sweetpea/index.htm
http://www.fyneboatkits.com/trolleye...3/67/index.htm

or something french, a little bit different but still nice
http://www.chantiermer.com/planlili.htm
its a french website so you have to guess a bit to find pics and stuff

[K4s]

A few for sale down this way,
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Mo...-256289393.htm

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Mo...-280395698.htm

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Mo...-288880723.htm