Green Cruiser 50

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by Doug Lord, Feb 11, 2009.

  1. Chris Ostlind

    Chris Ostlind Previous Member

    Nice post, Cube.

    Wonder of wonders... we just may have more in common than you thought. That is a nice idea.
     
  2. DGreenwood
    Joined: Aug 2004
    Posts: 722
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    Location: New York

    DGreenwood Senior Member

    Measuring how truly "Green" any product is, is a very complicated calculation that includes: lifespan of the product, transportation of its various components as well as the product, environmental cost of producing the materials, sustainability of the various used resources, disposal costs...the list goes on and on.
    I, for one, am willing to pay for the extra cost of seeing this planet start immediately toward repairing the horrible damage we've done to it. However, I must say I have become very skeptical of off hand statements about any product actually being an improvement in environmental damage. That is not to say this product is better or worse. That would take more work to figure out than I am willing to put out right now. If they have actually made an effort to produce a good quality boat that is less costly to our planet...good on them...I applaud.

    DT
    You are right...engineering has improved enormously in the last 10-20 years for our industry. And I have to say your desire to improve the application of ballast is admirable. Now you must see how the general public reacts to such embryonic ideas as though they will have one next week. Then some knucklehead builds it because some knucklehead will buy it. Then we end up with a pile of unused fiberglass sitting in yards. Not very green. A walk around any large yard will show this to be true.

    I know that you are in business and you need to attract those customers. Your ideas are a good method of bringing them to your door. I have absolutely no qualms with experimental design work like yours. The problems I mentioned are most likely solvable. But when I see people getting ideas that they will have one of those on their boat next spring I will step in and say "hold on here" .
    Disclosure on your website about the truly experimental and costly nature of such a device would go far in making the gullible public much better informed boaters. And, though gullible boaters have made many people wealthy in our industry, I believe an informed boater is a boater I will be selling to for years to come. Plus, he will be a happy guy and much more pleasant fellow to deal with.
    Finally,in reality, I wasn't dissing your innovative creation as much as I was trying to quell the overzealous desire of some of our forum mates to depict our near future lives at sea as borne on Mercurial wings manufactured of miracle fibers blasting around the globe at ear pinning speeds. ;?)
     
  3. Boston

    Boston Previous Member

    that measure is called embodied energy and its not yet a universal measure
    although its about to be

    on the whole
    I couldnt agree more
    taking it a step further
    I cant help but think the era of sail based commerce will return
    as well as fuels like cellulitic based alcohol maybe even based on algae harvesting

    the bend towards high tech will find itself tempered by the need for sustainability through a blending of ideas only now on the drawing boards

    this trend is best served when we share ideas and have an active and healthy debate
    basically putting our heads on a chopping block and seeing what shakes loose in a public forum
    for which I give Doug a lot of credit as he has taken his share of abuse and kept on ticking
    this foil thing is passive enough to have tremendous merit in the new world
    but is complex enough to be the proverbial reinventing of the wheel
    there must be middle ground
    and that middle ground is the green movement
    not the bs the advertising complex would like us to believe it is

    my own personal contribution in this regard is unfortunately not in the sailing forum but in plasma insulated windows which basically have an infinite r value ( recently patented :)

    but the concept is the same
    I think what Doug is doing is a valuable contribution
    as basically he is searching for a way to apply a passive technology in an active system
    could work eventually
    just got to keep it simple
    and keep trying till the magic combination is found

    best
    B

    as for me if I am lucky enough to scrape together the doe I would love to build a wood pilot schooner with CF masts and booms, cold molded and lead keel, cloth sail, hemp lines with limited electronics and an autopilot
    simple
    reliable
    seaworthy
    tried and true go anywhere vessel easy to take off a grounding and hard to wreck completely
    with low enviromental impact
    oh
    alcohol powered auxiliary
    runs cooler
    cleaner
    and not on fossil fuels
    just that Ill have to ship more fuel for the same distance traveled under power
    small price to pay
    hell I might even run just an alcohol generator and go with photovoltaic's for the maintenance power
    with a elec as a auxiliary

    ah and the alcohol makes great heater fuel as it doesnt stink like diesel does
     
  4. Boston

    Boston Previous Member

    hey David
    throw us a side by side comparison with carbon fiber

    thanks
    B
     
  5. Davide Tagliapi
    Joined: Feb 2009
    Posts: 9
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    Location: Milan

    Davide Tagliapi Junior Member


    Here is the side to side comparison. The results depends on the inputs and
    clearly the multiaxial layup and the type of Carbon fiber can have better properties. But I think this example might induce people think about the outcomes. This comparison is considering an hull bottom shell (slamming area) made in sandwich construction.
    If someone loves solid laminate construction technics they could be even more impressed knowing that using a solid bamboo layup they will save about 25% in weight compared to solid Eglass. Using carbon the saving is 50%.

    There are not many applications in marine field to know well all the drawbacks.
    There are some. For example:
    - the Bamboo UD supplier are mainly in China at the moment. But we all know that Bamboo is a grass and can grows almost everywhere very very quickly!
    -layup the bamboo plies in a the female mould require more time than Glass cloth.
    -the cost for small quantity is about 7 euros/m^2 (ply 0.6 thick)

    Anyway I think it's a chance to make things in a more clever way. Wood has been used for thousands years. This is grass and its mechanical properties can be even better.

    Don't you think it is worthy to invest a bit of our time, a bit of our intellectual resources to investigate these old materials embedded on new high technologies processes?
    I thought was worthy and I did spent some time on it and I'm curious about the reactions. Whatever they are it's always a step forward to paint the full picture.
     

    Attached Files:

  6. Tcubed
    Joined: Sep 2008
    Posts: 435
    Likes: 18, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 318
    Location: French Guyana

    Tcubed Boat Designer

    It seems to me that as only 30 % as much epoxy resin need be used this will offset to some extent the bamoo fibers present greater cost.

    It would be interesting to know how the cost compares once the resin is factored in.
     
  7. Boston

    Boston Previous Member

    actually if Bamboo fiber takes off it should get dam cheep
    I love this idea folks

    now to find a non petroleum based epoxy like substance
     
  8. robherc
    Joined: Dec 2008
    Posts: 433
    Likes: 5, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 102
    Location: US/TX

    robherc Designer/Hobbyist

    Boston-

    A while ago I found some clear plastic "deli tubs" made out of corn-based, "compostable" plastic (I think they called it PEX, or something like that), and they were VERY competitively priced (I think they MIGHT have even been the cheapest by size). Hopefully they aren't too terribly far away from that point with epoxies as well; though I don't think biodegradable epoxy would work out very well if your gel-coat got scratched. :(
     
  9. Boston

    Boston Previous Member

    well I use Titebond2 for all the oddball **** I build
    I just wish those guys would come up with a marine glue
    anyone ever put there stuff through the boiling and baking test

    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]
     
  10. ancient kayaker
    Joined: Aug 2006
    Posts: 3,497
    Likes: 147, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 2291
    Location: Alliston, Ontario, Canada

    ancient kayaker aka Terry Haines

    I would like to think you were right but I imagine sailing on a commercial basis requires a whole different set of skills from the crew, so it will take time for those skills to be recreated on a sufficiently large scale if it ever comes to pass.

    Re: your last post (some nice construction there) I use TB3 for my small boats, had zero failures so far and it's easy to use, but I still don't trust it in a situation where the wood becomes saturated.

    I'm not a fan of epoxy, but I understand it deteriorates when exposed to UV. Does anyone know if it changes to something the environment can handle?
     
  11. Chris Ostlind

    Chris Ostlind Previous Member

    As for more Green versions of epoxy... the R&D environment in University labs has seen 70/30, epoxy to soy oil based resins for more than six years now. Latest blends of proprietary chemistry are showing 50/50 blends to actually be stronger than straight epoxy. There's more to be had in this paper:
    http://www.sampe.org/store/paper.aspx?pid=937 More papers on similar topics can be seen here, with extracts that can be purchased:
    http://www.sampe.org/store/papers.aspx?c=&s=&st=7&p=34

    There is already a manufacturer of vegetable oil based resin that is UV activated:
    http://www.suscomp.com/resins.htm They have already built a very interesting dinghy from their resin with standard glass mat fabric:
    http://www.suscomp.com/Ecoboat.htm

    A bio-chemist at Oregon State Univ., has developed a soy based adhesive that closely mimics the adhesive chemistry secretions of mussels that can hold onto rocks in the wildest of sea conditions.
    Google based series of relating articles here:
    http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=mussel adhesive from soy oil oregon&aq=f&oq=

    Other university chemistry labs, in conjunction with industry efforts to clean-up their pollution, have found an amazing adhesive that is derived from the lignin waste of paper mills, called "black liquor" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_liquor Just Google for more detailed data.

    Bio-based soy chemistry foams, which could replace oil based structural foams in sandwich laminates, are already being utilized in the construction industry, as are soy based adhesives for exterior grade plywood glue-ups.

    All this stuff is about to pop wide open in the market place (some of it already has) and most of it is due to governmental and industry research grants to universities on the cutting edge of renewable resource chemistry studies.

    There are other bio-mass fiber sources besides hemp that also show great promise for composites, such as Kenaf and Flax.

    If you guys are looking for a revolution in the boating world, it exists within the use of these kinds of bio-based composite products. The kinds of products that will get us away from petro-chemical solutions for boat building and into a future of sustainable materials that will damage the environment in far lower amounts than we are currently accepting.
     

  12. Boston

    Boston Previous Member

    Ill have to look up TB3
    and ya Chris
    dam glad to hear it cuase the answer to Terry's question is a resounding no
    Epoxy is horrible on the environment
    its loaded with this stuff called bysphinol-A and its a really bad endocrine disruptor, water soluble at room temperature and u dont want to have an allergic reaction to it
    basically it effects the testicles the most
    I wrote a paper on plastics vs glass a while back
    let me see if I can dig it up
    I know Ive posted it before when a question like this came up


    Abstract
    
In regards to plastics use in manufacturing when a glass alternative is available. Compare the manufacturing processes, disposal practices, recycling potential and toxic effects of both glass and plastic and there effects on our environment. Hypothesis, that the preponderance of plastic fragments and molecular plastic, plastic leachates, binders, bio-toxins, bio-toxin accumulators carcinogens and tarterogens hormone disruptors, endocrine disruptors, plastic by products and consequential post and preproduction waste in the environment and there harmful consequence are sufficient to offset any advantages over glass. All conclusions are substantiated in the body and noted.

    

conclusions
    glass 


    Both glass and glass waste are non toxic and stable in the environment giving off no harmful byproducts. Manufacturing of glass produces pollutants at the source of manufacturing and during materials acquisition, these pollutants can be controlled economically: various network modifiers used in the production of glass appear to play no significant pollution role. Chemically tempered glass is also inert. Lead used in the manufacture of decorative glass falls under the guidelines of EPCRA Section 313 and is exempt being stable with in the glass matrix. There has been a steady decline in pollutants produced pr ton of glass, mainly co2 , noX, soX . Glass is 100% recyclable


    
conclusions
    plastic

    
Plastic, plastic components, the production of plastic and plastic waste are mildly to extremely toxic, all are environmentally detrimental, with results ranging from the release of strong carcinogens and tarterogens to the existence of bio-toxin accumulators and endocrine disruptors. five of the six most toxic and abundant chemical pollutants found in the environment are commonly associated with the production of plastics. Plastic photo-degrades releasing persistent toxins like Bisphenol A and Phthalates over extended periods of time. Plastic is non biodegradable and both the long chain and short chain plastic molecule appears to be permanent in the environment. Pollutants consisting of nurdles, leachates, fragmentary or hole plastic waste cannot be economically controlled. There has been an exponential rise in molecular plastic found throughout the worlds oceans. Animal deaths based on plastic ingestion number in the hundreds of millions with some extinction events and trophic cascades noted. Pollution pr ton of plastic produced appears to be increasing. Most plastic is non recyclable.

    

citation 
Paul Goettlich 14dec01 the problem with plastic 
Charles Moore and Miwa Tamanaha, Pelagic Plastic Task Force Organizers 11apr01
Plastic in the Sea - Paul Goettlich / Living Nutrition 5oct2005

Editor

    
This article is presently under development and will be edited upon its completion 
( so dont come at me with spelling issues )

    Copyright
    
This is an open-access article distributed under the terms of the Creative Commons Attribution License, which permits unrestricted use, distribution, and reproduction in any medium, provided the original author and source are credited.



    Funding 
This research project has been Anonymously funded, the benefactor having no role in study design, data collections and analysis, decision to publish, or preparation of the manuscript

    ( basically the girlfriend put up with me sitting on my *** for a few months while I was collecting all the data )

    
competing interests 

    the author confirms that no competing interests exist


    Body
    Environmental concerns over glass

    Glass is made up of a few naturally abundant minerals, mostly silicate, and breaks down into natural, harmless components(3,6). Waste glass is environmentally neutral(3). The vast majority of pollution caused by the manufacturing of glass is source point and can be managed economically. Waste glass prepared for reuse, called Cullet is also inert and its increasing use as an aggregate means that it can be economically reused without the need for remanufacture (36). When remanufacturing is advantageous cullet reduces the level of emissions from the process by up to 40% (3,37) and the level of energy by as much as 30% (9,32,35). glass has an Embodied Energy of between 25.0 MJ/kg and 12.7 MJ/kg (1,4,30). and a density of 2470 kg/m3 (1). Glass is 100% recyclable (32). The U.S. glass recycling rate in 2003 was 19% (9) in 2001, for Australia 83%, Sweden: 84%, Germany: 87%, Belgium and Norway: 88%, Finland: 91% and Switzerland: 92% (9). Recycling one ton of glass saves nine to ten gallons of oil (9,32)



    Environmental concerns over plastics

    
Plastic is made up of numerous petroleum based compounds, to produce 1 kg of Acrylic (PMMA, Polymethyl methacrylate) (23) 2 kg of petroleum is needed and up to 5 kg of toxic waist is generated (2,3). Plastic never breaks down but instead photo-degrades into some of the most hazardous petrochemical substances known to man (3,6,7,38). PMMA has an embodied energy of about 131.0MJ/kg with a density of 1180 kg/m3 (1,3,30). Although it is difficult to determine the exact production level of plastics per yr. 2007 estimates range from 100,000,000 to 205,000,000 tons (28,45) with an anual increase of 9.5% (45) 
100,000,000,000 plastic bags are used each year in the u.s. alone (10)
the U.S recovery (recycling) rate for all plastics in 2005 was 1% (3,5,8,10)
In 2007 World wide, less than 3% is recovered (3,5,8).
In an EPA ranking of the twenty chemicals whose production generates the most total hazardous waste, five of the top six are chemicals commonly used by the plastic industry. (10)
recycling one ton of plastic saves 1000 gallons of oil (10,32)

Plastic as it photo-degrades releases binders like Phthalates, Bisphenol A, Nonyphenols and PBDEs along with countless other known carcinogens and teratogens (3,16,21,25,32). Once the binders are released, plastic remains as a large molecule(3,17). Dioxins are created both during production and incineration (2,3,16,17,31,32,46) dioxins are the strongest carcinogen known to man (3,5,6.7,31,38), The number of harmful chemicals associated with the production of plastic are to numerous to mention in this comparison, however; just one a primary component of acrylics ( mainly polycarbonates ) is bisphenol A (BPA), a hormone disrupter, that releases into food and liquid at room temperature(3,16,17,21,), it is considered a teratogen along with thalidomide and is known to cause embryonic malformations (3.8.16). Phthalates have been shown to cause genital malformations
    In 1999 Plastic waste had outweighed plankton in our oceans 6 to 1, by 2002 the number had risen to 10/1 (3,10,11,16,17). The north pacific gyre alone, has a density of 14.8 million visible pieces of floating plastic per square mile, over an area twice the size of texas (3,11). Thats 1.9 pieces of plastic such as, bottles, bottle caps, lighters, beach palls, plastic packaging or plastic aquariums for every square foot of ocean surface spanning an area of 537,202 square miles (3,11). This is only one of six mid ocean gyre systems polluted to this extent (39). These areas of floating plastic range in size from twice the size of Texas to the size of Africa (3,11).
    Plastic appears to have a half life longer than most radioactive compounds (3) with its use being required by the epa as containment packaging for low grade nuclear waist disposal (33,43). Polyethylene has been approved for the long term disposal of liquid radioactive waist (3,40,41,42) ( of course they also approved glass, tar and concrete ). The long chain plastic molecule is so durable that its half life is still being researched.
    Plastic virtually never breaks down in the environment beyond the molecular level (3,7,11). We are stuck with every piece of plastic ever created (11). Unless collected and incinerated there is no getting rid of it. Remanufacture is not effective in halting plastics from leaching contaminates into there surroundings. There is little debate over the adverse effects of plastics to the marine environment (ref-all not one dissenting opinion as to plastics harmful effect on the marine ecosystem ), Various forms of marine life, eat so much plastic, mistaking plastic fragments for plankton that it has decimated our ocean communities (10,11,15,16,17,44). Filter feeders unable to distinguish between plastic molecules and plankton, ingest and include millions of tons of plastics into the food chain (3,7,10,11,16,17,32,44), leading to the contamination and eventual starvation of countless organisms (3,10,11,16,17,32,44). 


    
additional comments

    
the cost of collecting, destroying or remanufacturing Plastic (as most plastic is uneconomical to remanufacture) “must” be endured no mater how high because of plastics highly toxic and enduring nature; were as the recycling of glass can be safely limited to its economic viability with out adverse environmental effects, as long as source point gaseous emissions are controlled. The embodied energy of acrylic is over ten times that of glass, making it both an economically and environmentally unsound alternative (3,5,14,32). The environmental impact of glass is minimal (3,6,32,36,).

    

references
    1 ) Materials, geometry, and net energy ratio of tubular ...
    2 ) http://www.mindfully.org/Berkeley/Berkeley-Plastics-Task-Force.htm
3 ) www.mindfully.org/Plastic/
    4 ) measure of sustainability embodied energy
    5 ) http://www.mindfully.org/Plastic/Best-Recycle-Plastic.htm
    6 ) www.lotuslive.org/products/files/LLDrinkContainer01.pdf
    7 ) www.fakeplasticfish.com/synthetic_sea_transcript.html
    8 ) www.ecologycenter.org
    9 ) Metro: Waste reduction fast facts: Glass
    10 ) Metro: Waste reduction fast facts: Plastic
    11 ) www.acfnewsource.org/environment/
    12 ) www.fragmentsfromfloyd.com/ 2007/06/
    13 ) NRC: Radioactive Waste
    14 ) BBC NEWS | Science/Nature | Warning on plastic's toxic threat
    15 ) Keeping our ocean clean : Bradley Beach Today
    16 ) Untitled Document
    17 ) www.mountainfilm.org/downloads/docs/The_Plastic_Sea.pdf
    18 ) www.visiongroup.co.uk/go.jsp?page=visiongroup_uk.compare comparison of glass and plastic
19 )http://www.firsttankguide.net/tanktype.php comparison of glass and acrylic
    20 )www.stii.dost.gov.ph/pjsweb/data/decomposer.htm - 7k
    21 ) http://archive.greenpeace.org/toxics/pvcdatabase/bad.html
    22 ) http://www.epa.gov/chemfact/f_acrlac.txt
    23 ) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polymethyl_methacrylate
    24 ) http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5998554.html
    25 ) http://www.npi.gov.au/database/substance-info/profiles/6.html
    26 ) http://goalgreen.com/2007/06/25/plastic-the-gift-that-keeps-on-giving/
    27 ) http://www.chemsoc.org/exemplarchem/entries/2004/bristol_whitehead/facts.htm
    28 ) http://www.wasteonline.org.uk/resources/InformationSheets/Plastics.htm
    29 ) www.level.org.nz
    30 ) www.grisb.org/publications/pub33.htm - 24k -
    31 ) http://www.environment.gov.au/settlements/publications/
    32 ) GLASS vs. PLASTIC
    33 ) RADIOACTIVE WASTE MANAGEMENT PROCEDURES FOR DUKE UNIVERSITY ...
    34)http://www.devicelink.com/mpb/archi...esources/backissues/chemicals/acrylicacid.htm
    35 ) Fact Sheets - Glass
    36 ) ftp://ftp.dot.state.tx.us/pub/txdot-info/gsd/pdf/yrr_feb.pdf
    37 ) Cullet Preheating: The Realistic Solution for All Glass Furnaces ...
    38 ) Professional Environmental Solutions - Atlanta, Georgia
39 ) Patagonia Under Siege: The Plastic Killing Fields - Pacific Ocean ...
    40 ) Composition and process for the encapsulation and stabilization of ...
    41 ) APPENDIX D - Key Federal Laws and Regulations
    42 ) Mixed-Waste Shipping & Transportation | Radiation Protection | US EPA
    43 ) Low Level Radioactive Waste Information Page
44 ) DEP: Atlantic Green Sea Turtle Fact Sheet
45 ) Ulrich Reifenhäuser: Plastics and rubber have changed the world ...
    46 ) Plastic Debris Washed Ashore
    47 ) Bizarre Properties of Glass Revealed | LiveScience
    48 ) Canada Likely to Label Plastic Ingredient ‘Toxic’ - New York Times

    additional resources
    http://www.epa.gov/epaoswer/non-hw/muncpl/
    http://www.americanplasticscouncil.org/s_apc/sec.asp?TrackID=&CID=343&DID=1110&VID=86
    http://www.mindfully.org/Berkeley-Plastics-Task-Force.htm
    http://www.designboom.com/eng/education/pet/recycling.html
    http://americanplasticscouncil.org/s_apc/sec.asp
    http://www.epa.gov/epaoswer/non-hw/muncpl/glass.htm
    http://www.epa.gov/grtlakes/seahome/housewaste/src/glass.htm
    http://www.cityofmadison.com/streets/plastic.html

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