Go 'round in a Freedom 40?

[Seafarer24]

I'm going to look at a center-cockpit Freedom 40 soon. Hull #1, built in 1976 without an engine (though now it has an outboard).

I'm looking for a boat to circumnavigate in, would this be a suitable craft? Do you know of particular problem areas I should check when I view this boat?

[Bergalia]

Nice choice for solo sailing. Wishbone rig easily handled, nice stable boats from memory, but can get a bit wet sailing windward in choppy seas - but nothing to worry about from the handling point of view.
As for weak points, well we all get creaky joints with age, but a good surveyor should find any flaws for you. Good luck, good choice.

[OldYachtie]

http://www.sailamerica.com/halloffame/freedom40.cfm

3.5' isn't much draft for a 40' voyaging boat. Find something with more draft.

[Bergalia]

[quote=OldYachtie
3.5' isn't much draft for a 40' voyaging boat. Find something with more draft.[/QUOTE]

Pity three generations of past Freedom voyagers didn't know this.....

[OldYachtie]

Most Freedom boats aren't shoal draft, or at least that shoal draft. The Hoyt designed Freedom 40 was meant for the U.S. East coast and the Bahamas. I suppose that you could ask Gary Hoyt for his opinion of it's desirability as a voyaging (sea crossing) boat.

[Seafarer24]

I checked out the boat, and if I can come up with the money I'll buy it in a heartbeat. It has 4' draft with the board up and 9' draft with the board down. The board weighs around 2 tons. The current owner says he pretty much only uses the board going to weather in light airs and the rest of the time the boat handles just fine with the long keel. He's put a few thousand miles on her singlehanded and lived aboard a lot since buying her in '99. Told me she'll do half the windspeed in up to 20 knots, at which point she tops out around 10 knots. Reefs start going in after 40 knots of wind. He talked to Gary Hoyt who said when he raced the boat, he'd pull down the mizzen when the wind reached 50 knots and sail under full main. Dropping the mizzen is a 50% reef as both sails are 450sq ft on 50' aluminum masts.

I loved the interior layout of Hull #1 and understand that it is a bit different than that found on the production boats. Also, the hull is solid fiberglass and the deck is plywood-cored and very solid.

The 2nd owner apparently took the boat anywhere he chose, and while he didn't circumnavigate he did take the boat offshore in the Atlantic and Pacific.

I took quite a few pictures and will be putting together a website for the owner to use to help sell the boat. Sure, I'd like to buy it, but it would likely take me quite a while to put together 50-thousand dollars, and nobody finances 30 year old sailboats....

[mariner 40]

Dimensions of Tilikum
LOA 38'
LOB 30'
Beam 5'6"
Draft 24" loaded

[longliner45]

draft is one thing ,ballast is another ! sounds like a nice boat ,lets see some pics,,,,,,longliner

[Eric W. Sponberg]

There have been a number of Freedom 40s that have crossed oceans and sailed around the world. I was Chief Engineer at TPI for a few years when Freedoms were being built there. That particular boat, hull #1 of the Freedom 40, is a classic, and when its sailing days are over, she should probably be preserved in a museum. Treat her well!

Eric

[OldYachtie]

I'm sorry if I seem rude, but I just don't believe these numbers. I have sailed on a number of different boats, and done various ocean crossings, and I just don't believe that this boat will sail at 10 knots in 20 knots of wind, and I don't believe that it will carry 450 feet of sail in 49 knots. These numbers are waaay out of line with any conceivable reality.

Told me she'll do half the windspeed in up to 20 knots, at which point she tops out around 10 knots. Reefs start going in after 40 knots of wind. He talked to Gary Hoyt who said when he raced the boat, he'd pull down the mizzen when the wind reached 50 knots and sail under full main.

[Busman1965]

I would think twice about the original Freedom 40, for crossing. We lost a local business owner, back in the early 1990's, who was attempting to cross from the Bahamas back to Florida in a Freedom 40. The conditions were gale force, and 15ft seas, the boat was lost with all hands. I testified at the insurance trial, (as the last person to work on the boat). The boat was well found, and very well equipped, but it appears was overwhelmed by the seas. There was also conjecture as to the carbon fiber masts being hit by lightning, and exploding...never determined. The owner was a good sailor, and knew his boat. Just thought I'd put in my 2 cents worth from my experience.

[Bergalia]

I fairness Busman - given the above conditions any small vessel could founder, and it doesn't prove a vulnerabilty peculiar to the Freedom 40.

[Eric W. Sponberg]

Originally Posted by Busman1965

I would think twice about the original Freedom 40, for crossing. We lost a local business owner, back in the early 1990's, who was attempting to cross from the Bahamas back to Florida in a Freedom 40. The conditions were gale force, and 15ft seas, the boat was lost with all hands. I testified at the insurance trial, (as the last person to work on the boat). The boat was well found, and very well equipped, but it appears was overwhelmed by the seas. There was also conjecture as to the carbon fiber masts being hit by lightning, and exploding...never determined. The owner was a good sailor, and knew his boat. Just thought I'd put in my 2 cents worth from my experience.

I take issue with this characterization, and suggest you take it with a grain of salt. One cannot say that by virtue of it being a Freedom 40 that it did not survive. There are so many factors that relate to the seaworthiness of a craft that, short of specific evidence, you cannot say one way or another what the design of the boat may have contributed to its loss. What about the capacity (physical and mental) of the crew at the time and in those conditions? People can do unusual and uncharacteristic things in times of stress. What about the gear and equipment? What about the through-hull fittings and the hose clamps? Many a well-found boat has been lost due to a lose hose clamp or two. You don't know, and until you know, all is mere speculation. How many other boats of different designs have foundered and been lost with all hands? Quite a few, I dare say, so in this regard and in this instance, the Freedom 40 is perhaps no different than other boats that have been lost.

Also, when carbon fiber masts get hit by lightning, they don't explode! Being intimately involved in the design and construction of carbon fiber masts for nearly 30 years, I keep a tally of stories of carbon fiber masts that have been hit by lightning, and these almost always come from first-hand accounts. I have advised surveyors and insurance companies on lightning-struck carbon fiber masts. A lightning strike will damage a carbon fiber mast permanently, certainly, and it may fall down as a result of the ensuing burn-out damage, but carbon fiber masts certainly do not explode when struck by lightning. I have never heard of that happening.

And counter to that, how many other boats have been dismasted out at sea due to lightning, wind, wave, negligence, crew error, corrosion, poor maintenance, etc. There is a whole spectrum of mast designs, styles, constructions, and materials that have fallen victim to the elements. Let's not damn carbon fiber masts based on heresay and conjecture.

Eric

[OldYachtie]

Carbon fiber is conductive, and I think that that unstayed carbon fiber masts, especially, should have a lightning rod grounded with heavy copper wire to a ground plate on the outside of a hull-especially if used on the E. Coast of the US where there are lots of lightining strikes. Of course, if the boat in question was lost while actually in a gale in the gulf stream, steep breaking waves may have overwhelmed it, as strong currents and high winds are a bad combination, especially if the wind is against the current.

[Busman1965]

I was not condeming carbon fiber masts, as a whole, as they are quite good, but rather, just relaying what was brought out at the insurance trial by the various experts.... I will say, the conditions were bad, when this boat floundered, however, I have crossed the gulfstream 100+ times in many different types of boats (from 14ft Zodiacs to Freighters), and have been in similar conditions , and have found that some boats do not handle those type of seas well. A boat with a large stern area, and unstayed cat ketch rig, would be about my last choice for bad weather. Give me a good solid double ender, lots of heavy rigging, thats deep and well balasted, with short overhangs.... thats a real sea boat.