General Question Re: Performance Cruisers

[ath]

I've searched the forums for a poll but I am unable to find a list of favored designs for a performance cruiser. I like the Dashew boats. Maybe there are others.

Very generally, I am looking for the following:

1. LOA 50 - 60 monohull
2. Shorthanded rig
3. Production or custom
4. Able to make long single-day runs
5. Performance with comfort

Please direct me to any threads on the subject.

[alan white]

Not found on these threads, but I thought of Palawan, an Olin Stephen's design. My aquaintence with this boat was two crewed day trips. It has always been my favorite in its size range. I googled the design and went directly to the very same boat, for sale in Portland, ME.
Here is the link: http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1462478/0

Wonderful boat, beautiful and classic, and fast.

Alan

[DGreenwood]

Oh man don't get me started! Have you seen Robert Perrys "Icon" or some of Bill Tripps designs? I was just on a Reichel Pugh built by Lyman Morse in Maine that was beautiful. How about the recent Paul Bieker or the others he designed before that? Owen Clarke did a really cool one a couple years ago that I really liked. I'll dig a few of them up and put up the links.

http://www.owenclarkedesign.com/da/11196

http://www.perryboat.com/largeview/c...l+Carbon+sloop

http://www.reichel-pugh.com/

http://www.bakewell-white.com/pages/...0-%20Brisa.htm

The list goes on

[ath]

Ah, thanks. I like them all. Has anyone seen a poll or thread in reference to the benefits of metal ie aluminum over core or glass? What is the life expectancy of a carbon hull?

[alan white]

I had always thought that the benefit of aluminum was relatively light weight, longevity, and a certain degree of survivability in the event of collision (not so much as steel, but lighter and lower maintainence, metallurgically compatable with light fittings, masts, etc.).
Many feel that aluminum is an ideal boat material. It is difficult if not impossible to produce a perfectly fair hull out of it, as with steel, but aluminum is generally amenable to lightweight epoxy fairing compounds, so with longboarding and attention to detail, they are indistiguishable from fiberglass.
It is difficult to choose between aluminum and steel, however, when ultimate survival vs weight is considered. Steel is the hands down winner by a good margin, able to take amazing pounding and flexing without tearing open.
In a large boat (as sailboats go) of 50-60 ft, skin weight is not so much an issue in overall weight (because the surface to volume ratio diminishes as size increases). At least above that length, I would imagine the difference would matter less and less (a big all-out racer wouldn't use either alum. or steel, but perhaps exotic cored resin/carbon/kevlar/etc.).
Carbon hull? Wow. Maybe someone else can help you there.

A.

[DGreenwood]

Originally Posted by ath

What is the life expectancy of a carbon hull?

Very good question. You will hear a lot of negative talk about carbon. Mostly by those that don't really understand it. Because it is now the material of choice for the well funded, no holds barred, racers it is often pushed to it's impressive limits. When it breaks it is pointed at as being unreliable. When used a little conservatively by an experienced engineer and built by a good builder it really is amazing stuff. It has flaws and quirks, same as other materials.
There are examples of carbon boats that have taken severe punishment and are still around.

[Vega]

Take a look at Shipman boats. I believe it is difficult to get better if you consider Price/comfort/speed/easy handling with short crew or solo. I find them good looking too.

http://www.shipman.dk/

[marshmat]

What is the life expectancy of a carbon hull?

Depends on what it's built for, and how well. Just like anything else. As DG says, it is an incredible material. Because it's so strong and light, it's naturally the material of choice for race boats. Who build with minimal safety factors and run well over design limits on a regular basis. Hence why carbon boats have a reputation for breaking. Used a bit more conservatively it lasts forever- almost literally. The trouble is, it's obscenely expensive to use it conservatively.

benefits of metal ie aluminum over core or glass?

Any sort of cored construction is going to be vulnerable to water intrusion on a boat. Steel is vulnerable to rust, aluminum doesn't like being beaten on rocks for extended periods (not that you're planning to do that much, right?). Metal's often cheaper for a one-off since you don't need moulds etc. Fibreglass is usually cheaper for a production line, once you have the mould (which costs more than the boat in many cases) you just churn hulls out like clockwork. Depends very much on personal preference and intended use, if you ask me.

[ath]

All excellent advice and wisdom that is to be expected from this forum. I greatly appreciate the input ...

[DGreenwood]

Originally Posted by Vega

Take a look at Shipman boats. I believe it is difficult to get better if you consider Price/comfort/speed/easy handling with short crew or solo. I find them good looking too.

http://www.shipman.dk/

Whoa! that is an impressive yacht. I'll take that one.

[MikeJohns]

Originally Posted by ath

Ah, thanks. I like them all. Has anyone seen a poll or thread in reference to the benefits of metal ie aluminum over core or glass? What is the life expectancy of a carbon hull?

Following on .............

The composites do have a finite life, embrittlement of the matrix occurs even if the fiber qualities remain the same, and the fiber matrix bonds can change permanently with age and stress (and temperature). The material life-time will depend on many factors and there's no hard and fast guide.

Weight distribution in a performance cruiser is quite different to that of an out and out racer and the savings in hull weight by going high tech rapidly diminish.

Metal boats have the best self insurance. Any hull is designed to a factor of safety(FS) for assessed loads. Only in hard duty work boats do you design for collisions and groundings, otherwise the loads are those imposed by normal sailing operational loads with extra consideration for docking (haul-out).

Consider what happens to the material when the FS is exceeded. Metal structures are designed to the metals yield strength or often to a fatigue limit but they only break at ultimate tensile strength which is considerably higher than yield, between yield and UTS they deform and absorb energy. Composites are denied this luxury, Carbon fibers are incredibly strong but they are not very tough, impact resistance is poor, composites also fail miserably if the fiber directions and planes don’t line up with the applied stresses, the considerable CF fiber strength is not applied evenly in all directions(non isotropic), they also suffer considerably from even relatively minor misapplication of materials during layup.
All this means considerable expense which only makes sense if you are designing to stringent vessel weight/strength ratios.
In my opinion the cruiser is better served with a tough impact forgiving and easily repairable hull material. Light displacement (by ratio) performance cruisers over say 45 feet is achievable from any sensible material, you just need to find a designer who can and accept the various trade-offs.

This at least gives you a primer.

Cheers

[Paul Scott]

Perry's 'White Eagle' (60'+) is very fast, although she'd need some mods to be sailed short handed. She's for sale, btw. I've sailed her. Deceptively fast. Aluminum.

I own Amati, a Perry 40' ULDB Cruising Sled. COVE composite wood. Sven Donaldson said she was ludicrously easy to handle. Does 15 K too. Without the assym. We sail her two up. Always.

Paul

[ath]

Narrowing it down to aluminum, any favourites come to mind? What do you think of this boatyard http://www.garcia-bateaux.com/index.htm and http://www.setsail.com/dashew/do_beowulf.html

[marshmat]

Can't say I'm familiar with the Garcia yard; their publicity materials at least are very professional and they've churned out some beautiful craft. I don't know much about their reputation or capabilities.
The Beowulf-class has got to be one of the best all-round cruising yachts there is; I'd love to do an ocean passage on one. Afraid ownership of such a boat is out of the question here as they run around $4M USD ready to sail.

[Vega]

- Able to make long single-day runs

-Performance with comfort.
Hum...

Garcia is specialized on comfortable cruisers, especially deriveurs, not properly on performance cruisers. The comfort issue is a very relative concept and varies with personal tastes… and I don't know yours .

Personally, if I had the money, I would probably chose a Finot boat. He has several designs of aluminium fast cruisers; some of them are made in small series and at a very attractive price. The most popular is the Cigale, a design that has already some years, but that did not prevent one of them to win its class at the last "Route du Rhum", a solo transat. By the way, that boat is for sale and it is a new one, fully equipped with first class sails.

The Cigale is built by Alubat, the same builder of the OVNI and certainly one of the most experienced shipyards that work with aluminium.

http://www.alubat.com/voilier%20alu%20gammecigale.php

Or even better, the Albatros 50'

http://www.finot.com/general/index_ang.htm

in the Index look at – boats- Super yachts – Albatros 50

If you want more comfort (and less speed) take a look here (they have also lot of experience in building with Aluminium). They used to make deriveurs (and they still do) but they have a new line of faster cruisers: The new Azzuro line.

http://www.alliage-yachts.com/FR/voi...ro_47_tech.htm

or take a look at the JFA- Yachts:

http://www.jfa-yachts.com/HTMLs/start_uk.htm