Foiling - the Future or a Folly

[Rick Willoughby]

Terry
I have learnt to value all opinions. I do get frustrated with some from time to time and am prone to offer an opposing opinion sometimes just to start a debate.

Personally I think all the silly names degrades the appeal of the site but that is my opinion.

I do not know how you can change name and carry over all the details of your current user name. I expect it would require some effort for Jeff the moderator. One thing is to add your name as a standard signature. Another is to make your name the Custom User Title in your profile.

Rick W

[robherc]

Well, Rick;

I hope my nom de plume hasn't bothered you too much, but it's actually been my internet name since, well, since we were all using WFW (Windows for Workgroups) 3.11 and all filenames had to be 7.3 characters. I've used it on several other tech. forums that I participate(d) in, and even own robherc.com (though I haven't updated it in about 7 years).

Anywise, out of my shell, I'll put my "real" name out there for you all:
Rob Hercules (oh wait...Rob+Herc...I get it now!)...sorry, couldn't resist the sarcasm on that one.

And no, I don't mean you any offense Rick....and I understand that it IS irritating to read outlandish posts from some (person), and look to see who it was...another name-hider. Gotcha

[Rick Willoughby]

If you were contemplating a useful application for a peoples' foiler I doubt that it would be powered by sails. Wind is simply too fickle. The best time on the water is when it is balmy and calm.

Foiling for sustained periods is beyond the power/weight level of most people so it will not be human powered.

You need about 500W to get impressive speeds with a single person foiler - say up around 20kts. This sort of power level is readily available from model plane parts that cost peanuts.

The main benefit is that you can make a relatively short craft that is easy to transport as a cartopper. It would be no bigger than a mid range sit-on. Make the cockpit fully faired, sitting low with little windage. With a USD100 li-ion battery you would get close to an hour of operation. Say reliable distance covered of 15nm. Easy to double the batteries to go twice as far.

The hull would be set up to be self-righting with the motor pod acting as a ballasted keel. The foils required to lift 100kg at say 15kts would be tiny. Aim to operate a foot or so above water level so small chop is no bother.

I wonder if it would have wide appeal.

Rick W

[Rick Willoughby]

Originally Posted by robherc

Well, Rick;

I hope my nom de plume hasn't bothered you too much, but it's actually been my internet name since, well, since we were all using WFW (Windows for Workgroups) 3.11 and all filenames had to be 7.3 characters. I've used it on several other tech. forums that I participate(d) in, and even own robherc.com (though I haven't updated it in about 7 years).

Anywise, out of my shell, I'll put my "real" name out there for you all:
Rob Hercules (oh wait...Rob+Herc...I get it now!)...sorry, couldn't resist the sarcasm on that one.

And no, I don't mean you any offense Rick....and I understand that it IS irritating to read outlandish posts from some (person), and look to see who it was...another name-hider. Gotcha

Rob
I thought your sirname was Herc - so there you go.

I would certainly be less inclined to call real people wankers. But silly names beg the title. It is like we are in some sort of covert operation where some dare not use their real name - maybe worried the wife might find out how they spend their time.

Rick W

[robherc]

Originally Posted by Rick Willoughby

The main benefit is that you can make a relatively short craft that is easy to transport as a cartopper. It would be no bigger than a mid range sit-on. Make the cockpit fully faired, sitting low with little windage. With a USD100 li-ion battery you would get close to an hour of operation. Say reliable distance covered of 15nm. Easy to double the batteries to go twice as far.

The hull would be set up to be self-righting with the motor pod acting as a ballasted keel. The foils required to lift 100kg at say 15kts would be tiny. Aim to operate a foot or so above water level so small chop is no bother.

I wonder if it would have wide appeal.

Rick W

I don't remember what experimenter's site I saw it on, but someone developed a elec-powered foiler that could "fly" at about 5-10 knots & "supposedly" was going to market it, but I haven't heard any more about it since. Just a snippet.

[Chris Ostlind]

Originally Posted by Rick Willoughby

If you were contemplating a useful application for a peoples' foiler...

Foiling for sustained periods is beyond the power/weight level of most people so it will not be human powered.

... The main benefit is that you can make a relatively short craft that is easy to transport as a cartopper. It would be no bigger than a mid range sit-on. Make the cockpit fully faired, sitting low with little windage. With a USD100 li-ion battery you would get close to an hour of operation. Say reliable distance covered of 15nm. Easy to double the batteries to go twice as far.

I wonder if it would have wide appeal.

I have a feeling, Rick, that it would be worth pursuing, especially in a global market that is growing more and more aware of electric vehicles every day.

It would be sure to spawn a whole pile of backyard electric/mechanical dudes into producing their own take on the concept.

Have a look at this guy's take: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovHAyKpHViU

This guy's: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TViDO...eature=related

A Bayliner from an ex-Boeing dude: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w54-O...eature=related no midship wand, however.

And especially this guy, if you can digest the disco music:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wObfl...eature=related

That should spark a few comments

[bistros]

Originally Posted by Rick Willoughby

You need about 500W to get impressive speeds with a single person foiler - say up around 20kts. This sort of power level is readily available from model plane parts that cost peanuts.

The main benefit is that you can make a relatively short craft that is easy to transport as a cartopper. It would be no bigger than a mid range sit-on. Make the cockpit fully faired, sitting low with little windage. With a USD100 li-ion battery you would get close to an hour of operation. Say reliable distance covered of 15nm. Easy to double the batteries to go twice as far.

The hull would be set up to be self-righting with the motor pod acting as a ballasted keel. The foils required to lift 100kg at say 15kts would be tiny. Aim to operate a foot or so above water level so small chop is no bother.

I'd consider buying/building one - it's a drag sitting on shore here on no-wind days, and skiff sailing in under 3 knots of wind is too much like work and uncomfortable (gimme my trapeze harness!). Ottawa is basically a low (read as no!) wind venue all too frequently.

I wonder about the battery costs quoted - I've had to buy replacement laptop lithium-ion cells and I wish I only had to pay $100. How many amp/hours are we talking here?

Would the model airplane parts be able to handle the high drag, slow revolutions and load? I would expect the service target loads and torque requirements to be very different.

In regards to your pen name issues, I've been using bistros since the mid 70's before attending University of Waterloo - it is a 7 letter concatenation of my first and last names (not any made-up pseudo-cover). I was on DARPA-net using this before there was an Internet. It worked with Unix servers at university, DARPA-net and Compuserve naming conventions.

"Handles" on the Internet have a long, respected and well-established history. A handle become a unique, valued identity over time that is less confusing than the 206 people found under "R Willoughby" in just the US (Intelius search). Names are just as easily made up on line as a handle, and if you think using a name when posting provides more credibility about a poster, you are sadly mistaken. There were three or four people on Sailing Anarchy posting as "Doug Lord" this past year - doing so to annoy the "real" one.

It takes all of 0.6 seconds on the Internet to find anything you want on anybody. Seriously, if anyone thinks they can hide behind a handle they understand less about the "Internets" than politicians.

--
Bill

[bistros]

Originally Posted by Chris Ostlind

My God, Bill

Next, you're going to tell me that I'm being watched with Giga res IR and that I have a specific IR signature as registered with NSA. I'm in enough trouble with my wife as it is when I'm up too early doing boat plan sheets.


hmmmm.... maybe it's that chip at the base of my skull I got the last time I was abducted by aliens...? Are they on the Net too?

Help Mr. Wizard!!!!!!!!

Domestic and international Internet traffic in the United States is being scanned constantly - looking for keywords, phrases, use of particular language encoding and particular packet sequences. The National Security Agency's various surveillance programs, implemented at key routing transfer points and ISP gateways are well documented.

This was implemented under the Patriot Act, and continues to run today.

I'm in the communication security business.

Can't comment on the chip in your neck, although I had one installed in my puppy by her vet.

Lots of nasty aliens on the 'net according to Lou Dobbs, the Director of Xenophobia who holds court nightly on the Department of Propaganda Channel (whoops, I mean CNN).

--
Bill

[robherc]

Originally Posted by Chris Ostlind

Next, you're going to tell me that I'm being watched with Giga res IR and that I have a specific IR signature as registered with NSA.....

Let's see...
Chris Ostlind, born & raised in So. Cal.
Doesn't finish most of his plans that are available on Duckworks...
...that's from the very first link that came up on Google...if You'd like to pay about $20USD, I could show you your history of physical addresses, full police traffic/criminal record, known aliases, known acquaintances & family members, plus whom you bought your last 3 houses from/sold them too & who some of your neighbors are/were.
The info IS out there, and it IS publicly easily available...and most of it can be had for free, if one is willing to put in the effort to find it.

[Chris Ostlind]

Thanks for the intro, Rob. The gesture is most kind.

Here's what the designer page on Duckworks says in total:

Lunada Design/Chris Ostlind

Chris Ostlind grew up in Southern California where he learned to surf (of course) and later to sail and paddle about every kind of boat known. He built quite a few too.

After a long career as an architectural photographer, and a video cameraman/director, Chris is now devoting his time to designing beautiful and functional watercraft for amateur builders.

Chris has long been a contributor to Duckworks Magazine and we are delighted to be able to offer plans for his wonderful designs here.

Note: Several of Chris Ostlind's designs are not totally complete. Most have enough done that you can begin construction and Chris will make every effort to get updates to you in a timely fashion. To find out more about the status of any of these plans, write to chris@wedgesail.com - you can also write to Chris to request printed offsets when you do order plans. Otherwise you will receive those as PDF files.


At this point, 11 of the designs I have done are completed as plan sets. There are 31 more to go and they are all on a schedule... one at a time. Custom design jobs keep falling into the hopper that push back the schedule of stock plan set completions. I'm currently putting the final touches on a Euro version of the Gato Especial, station drawings for the Neo beach cruising cat, an interesting 17' coastal cruising tri and a kid's training skiff called, the Cabrillo.

It's been an interesting journey.

[robherc]

Chris:
...I meant no disrespect about the designs...just pointing out haw quick/easy it is to find info on pretty much anyone. Personally, I think it's great that you make your designs available through duckworks.
Heck, for many amateurs, partially-finished designs might fit the bill better anywise...easier to imagine your own modifications that way

[Rick Willoughby]

Chris
I have seen all of these and I envisage lighter and lower power. The foils would be higher aspect and somewhat more prone I guess than the ones shown. That becomes a challenge for some method of protection.

Maybe we set a challenge for a 750Wh class. The competition is the longest distance travelled in 1 hour.

Bill
I gave up handles once more than 8 characters were used in file names etc. My email name is still a concatenation but most large companies now use first and second name separated by a ".". I have enough clutter in my life that I now force myself to discard things that are obsolete. My strong personal preference is to address a person rather than a handle.

Identity theft is a growing problem I believe but having a handle is not going to alter that as you and Rob point out.

Also on the batteries I did the mental arithmetic too quickly. You would need four of these:
http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/s...0mAh_6S1P_25C_
So will set you back USD400 for something over 400Wh. Not sure how long they would last and associated water risks.

There are some here that might be more durable:
http://www.batteryspace.com/index.as...&Category=1087

Rick W

[ancient kayaker]

Rick: are you planning to pursue a human powered foiler? Thought I saw something about that someplace but forgot where. For me a foiler would have to be a sailer: no power of any kind or anything remotely smacking of effort, peculiar attachment to paddling notwithstanding.

Perhaps it's the intellectual satisfaction of teasing a bit of use from something that wants to be someplace else as soon as possible. Or maybe I acquired a taste for futility from many years of trying to sell high-tech toys.

[Boston]

I wonder if it would have wide appeal.

got my interest and the flickers were cool

I wonder what could be done with say five horse power and a two man crew
could it fly?

Best
B

[Rick Willoughby]

Originally Posted by ancient kayaker

Rick: are you planning to pursue a human powered foiler? ....

I have done some testing with lifting foils. I think I pointed out elsewhere that I have actually flown under pedal power but that was with 90% of the boat supported on submerged buoyancy so does not really count.

I have a 2.4m wide foil that I can attach to boats but I have only managed to get some lift uncontrollable roll so far.

My new pedal boat will be very light and I might try flying with it. I would like to have swing down foils that can be engaged for high speed operation for short periods.

From what I have experienced in typical sailing conditions you need to find the right time and place to foil. Most of the time my current pedal boat will outpace any sailing boat under 14ft around a triangular course. There might be some days when they have the right window. Lighter winds or stronger winds I go better. I think a sailing foiler will have even smaller operating window.

I actually tried to find the average speed for moths around a course to see how they compare over a range of conditions but have not found anything.

Most people who try my pedal boat are staggered by the ease that they can cover the ground. I can hold a sustained jog on flat ground of 11kph and that is the same speed I can hold on the water in calm weather. Any speed under 11kph is easier physically for me on the water than jogging or walking on land.

Last weekend I covered 29km on the Yarra River in about 3.5hours and that included taking photos at the on-water boat show and numerous photos on the return trip. You would never do this on a sailing foiler.

Very few people have actually experienced the thrill of a fast pedal boat. I may be a tragic but it is the best fun I have ever had on water. It is not something I get bored with. Being able to get above 20kph for bursts would add a new dimension.

Rick W