Foiler vulnerability to trash in the water

[Chris Ostlind]

...and in spite of the suggestion that you not trot-out another list of stuff we have already seen, you did it anyway.


Douglas... a really significant demonstration of overall value to the sailing community, unlike anything done by foilers, has already been accomplished within the same time period, by the BIC corporation with their world beater design...the O'pen BIC dinghy.

Sales numbers that absolutely dwarf those by any combined number of foilers you care to mention.

Regatta attendance worldwide that similarly dwarfs any foiling regatta ever held.

The introduction of the most important group of sailing enthusiasts; the young kids, to the sport in a positive and incredibly fun manner.

Providing a product that is nearly indestructable, so that kids can learn to sail while their parents know that the little hotshots aren't going to destroy the college fund while doing so.

A boat that can be learned in a matter of a few minutes, so that the new sailor can join his buds and get out on the water and have a blast.

Shall I go on?

When any foiler you care to mention can produce a success story equivalent to that already accomplished by the O'pen BIC, you make sure to let us all know.

Right now, the only revolution I see in the sailing world is because of boats such as the O'pen BIC mentioned above. Anything you have to contribute is but a blip on the screen of the larger world of sailing.

... and surprise! The little French boat is easy to clear should one encounter weeds while sailing. So easy that you don't have to roll the thing over on its side to do it. So easy that a nine year old can do it with aplomb.

[ancient kayaker]

Chris, are you really that much against foiling?

I think the problem with this thread is, it's reached the end of its useful life.

[Chris Ostlind]

When did I ever say I was against foiling? Any quick check with the search function would show that I find it an interesting sidebar to the broader sailing environment. Always have. When it comes to a foiling "revolution", though... the singular proponent's argument just doesn't hold water, if you'll pardon the expression.

As a general position, I'm philosophically opposed to the use of tech, for tech's sake. I believe that simpler, more efficient designs, with pleasing lines and high utility, are what the sailing industry needs right now. That position pushes technology-driven foiling craft into the realm where they are more of a unique, slender-segment design genre with limited market appeal built-in to the type.

Nothing wrong with niche products, but they hardly qualify as revolutionary as a general rule. Foiling Moths are, in fact, all about an evolutionary process because they have emerged as the latest form of an on-going development class and the technology of lifting foils on boats has been known for many decades.

As for a so-called People's Boat... there are several, non-foiling boats already in the marketplace that have more than proven themselves to be much more of that descriptor than a foiler could be.

One look at the current state of the foiling market will tell you everything. The firms producing boats are very small, have very limited sales numbers and are likely to stay that way. It's quite obvious that even now, they have not arrived as mainstream products, as not one really big boat building company has bothered to tool-up to enter the marketplace. I wish these little builders well, as it's truly tough to design and market any kind of boat, especially in this current economy.

The two most recent foiling products that went sorta big time, the Hobie Trifoiler and the Windrider Rave, both effectively flopped as products and have been out of production for quite some time.

So, that's the deal (abbreviated) as I see it.

[Doug Lord]

Originally Posted by Chris Ostlind

1) Foiling Moths are, in fact, all about an evolutionary process because they have emerged as the latest form of an on-going development class and the technology of lifting foils on boats has been known for many decades.

2) As for a so-called People's Boat... there are several, non-foiling boats already in the marketplace that have more than proven themselves to be much more of that descriptor than a foiler could be.

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1) I'm sorry but thats just not correct. The foiler moth was the first sailboat to sail on just two foils and that and the altitude control system borrowed from the Rave and refined for the Moth were -and are -a revolution in small sailboat design. NEVER before in history had any sailboat ever sailed on just two foils. It's a common mistake made by people not informed of the true significance of the Moth. Every foiler before the Moth bi-foiler had three, four or more foils. It was so revolutionary that even this countries top foiler designer in 1999 did not think sailing on just two foils could be done. And in the years since the little foiler Moth has turned all the old belief systems about small boats upside down: remember when you were a kid and you "knew" a cat was always faster than the same size monohull? Well, not any more-in fact the 11' Moth has whuped every performance monohull AND catamaran under 20'!! This is trully a revolution in small sailboat design and development.
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2) No, no ostlind-you're getting a little shifty there: It's Peoples Foiler not Peoples boat.......

[Chris Ostlind]

So, I'll say it one more time, just in case there's been a slow uptake of the facts.

Over the last 100 years, give, or take, there have been four foil boats, three foil boats, one foil boards/chairs/toasters and then.... there was a two foil boat.

Let's see... numerically, it would look like this.

4 3 _ 1

One sees this kind of example all the time on aptitude tests where the test asks you to write down the missing value. It's all about simple logic and recognition of character progression. The obvious answer is 2. The so-called "revolutionary" discovery of the number two, as it might apply to foils on a boat, is pretty straight-forward stuff. That's called evolution, Doug, and not REvolution. Sixth graders all over the US know this intuitively, yet here we are with one of us still seeing something entirely different from the way it is seen by the rest of the world. ???

As to that last bit with the words... You can call your pseudo revolutionary thing that doesn't exist, anything you want. It still doesn't exist, so a description of a piece of boat vaporware is pretty dang pointless. It's so very much like the Hans Christian Andersen tale of the Emperor's New Clothes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor%27s_New_Clothes If it makes you happy to run around and toot that horn, then... by all means, toot that horn.

[peterraymond]

You guys are all suffering from ITD. Sailors love special vocabulary, so I invented this TLA (Three Letter Acronym) just for the occasion. It stands for Internet Thread Disorder. This term should applied when (almost) none of the postings relate to the original thread subject and every thread drifts to the same subject.

ITD is closely related to MAS. That's Male Answer Syndrome and describes the tendency of men to answer any question asked, whether they have any knowledge of the subject or not. My wife is particularly amused by my MAS skills, but then I digress.

What does please me though is that I wasn't particularly interested in the original subject, so watching the, to use a euphemism, "discussion", is particularly enjoyable light entertainment.

I'd hate to discourage anyone while they are on a roll, so I'll throw in my $.02.

The Laser was an attractive combination of performance and ownership convenience with acceptable cost and reliability. The combination hit a relatively under-served market niche and the result is what I would guess is the boat with the largest world-wide sales ever.

Certainly today the market for hydrofoilers is much smaller than the sailboat market, the day-sailer market, or even the high performance dinghy market. If someone could find and hit the sweet spot, probably enough world-wide demand could be generated to support for one foiler. What is the current world-wide demand for the Laser? A design that checks all the boxes should be very happy with 1/10th that.

Even if you had that boat, people would have to see it, hear good things about it, see that it was sticking around and then, after all that, they might buy one. It's not just creating the boat either, assuming you can, you still have a lot of skepticism to overcome.

The mono-foiler seems to be a great small high performance solution for the athletic sailor. We might be able to guess the characteristics of broader market solution, but no one has produced a boat with those characteristics yet. No one can even show us the pretty pictures, the numbers and the VPP results.

Ocean racing, speed sailing, sail technology... In every area you can do a search and find web sites where people with pretty pictures are promising that if you supply the money, they will create a revolution. On some of them you can even see pictures of real parts for a few blog postings - the last of which was 3 years ago. I'll give Doug credit for one thing: he's not asking us to fund his dream.

[Paul B]

Originally Posted by peterraymond

I'll give Doug credit for one thing: he's not asking us to fund his dream.

Oh, I guess you haven't been around long enough to remember some of his attempts. He used to regularly invade just about every thread to try to get someone to fund one of his TM or patented gizmos.

The funniest one was his calculation showing he would need $450,000.00 to develop his "People's Foiler" and bring it to market. All interested parties were to contact him to get in on the ground floor of the revolution.

I don't think he got many takers.

[ancient kayaker]

Chris: thanks for the correction - you had me worried there for a while

Doug: IMHO something new is a revolution the first time it is demonstrated successfully. After that it is more likely to be an evolution. The hydrofoil concept was developed by such as Thomas Edison and Graham Alexander Bell. Some of us do appreciate your attempts to keep us informed on things related to foiling, but I think revolutionaries need to set their sights a little higher. The introduction of foiling sailboats to the general public would indeed be a revolution, but not until it actually happens surely?

Peter: it's the thread that's suffering from ITD. The guys aren't suffering at all