Foiler Moth World Championship Standings
Results for the first eight of ten races for the International Moth (foiler) World Championships are posted here: http://www.horsens-sejlklub.dk/IMWC2006/
With but two races remaining tomorrow, Simon Payne of Great Britain has overtaken Australian, Rohan Veal in the top spot. Simon won both events today. Rohan took second in the first heat and then punched-out a fifth place finish in the second event of the day to fall out of first.
Unless both of these guys totally dump it tomorrow, nobody else has a chance to nab the title.
Designer, manufacturer and regular contributor to these pages, John Ilett, is solidly positioned in eighth place. A really creditable showing considering his heavy, product building schedule.
With 32 sailors entered, there seems to be a ton of DNS showings in the lower half of the fleet. Not atypical when one considers the limits of sponsorships, top-notch equipment and spares.
Historic World Championship
For links and pix checkout post 221 at this link:
Moth on foils 27.9 knots (32mph) - Page 15 - Boat Design Forums
Address:Moth on Foils: 32.2 knots (37.03 mph)
Congratulations to Simon Payne for first and to Rohan for second. See the UK site for really hot pictures of the boats.
The Revolution continues.....
Crap in the water screws foiling
I know Doug won't admit this as it's clearly outside the definition of his "continuing revolution", as he describes it, but Rohan Veal's foils were regularly plagued by miscellaneous crap in the water during the recently completed World Championships in Denmark.
You can read his heat by heat reports here at his personal page:
For a boat type that all the foiler proponents claimed would not be unduly affected by floating stuff in the water, this is a problematic conclusion. Rohan was stricken down by a plastic bag, as well as a couple of bouts with weed on the foils that seriously hampered his efforts to stay competitive with Simon Payne.
A World Champ dethroned by simple junk in the water. Seems such a shame that our local boy, Doug, won't admit the issue openly, directly and then get on with the equitable discussion. I know that Doug has been reading the same postings as I from Rohan's page and yet, strangely, he's had nothing to say about this issue. I guess one can pretend that the bad news isn't really there if one just doesn't talk about it. Is it any wonder that Doug has been so silent as of late?
To Rohan's credit as a man, he openly discusses his struggles as well as his achievements. That's the kind of guy this sport needs if it is to move forward.
This dilemma is the ultimate take down of all the over-blown hype we have experienced to date. An innocuous piece of trash in the water and thousands of dollars spent traveling from Australia to Denmark with all the shipping costs involved... down the drain. I have the deepest respect for all the guys who are driving these boats, designing and building potential improvements without adding clutter and placing themselves on the front edge of the ever-so-sensitive dance with the devil in the works.
"The Revolution has had a Sputtering Moment"
Ostlund( anti foiler) probably started this thread to bring up his past ridiculous anti-foiler "crap in the water" absurdity!
One just has to read the accounts from Rohan and on the UK site to see what a crock Ostlunds "conclusions " are. Man, what a pathetic theory!
Sure Rohan snagged a plastic bag and turned the boat over to get rid of it and continued racing regaining first place before losing right at the end of the race. The Ostlund (AF) theory seems to imply that all foilers are bad because Rohan snagged some weed or a plastic bag! Well, Simon Payne snagged weed as did other competitors in what many have desccribed as an incredibly exciting worlds! Weed, plastic bags etc can affect any sailboat race particularly one with high performance boats; so what? But did the crap in the water affect Rohans final result? If you read his narrative and the UK Blog you'll see that the racing was tight and exciting but that Rohan couldn't sail as fast or as high as Simon and also had constant problems with his hurt knee. The crap in the water- such as it was- certainly didn't intentionally single Rohan out! There's no doubt that everybody faced the same problems and still put on one hell of a show. All the witnesses to this regatta have raved about the extraordinary performance of these boats particularly their light air performance(foiling in 6knots of wind!!!) and "upwind gybes"-a light air technique peculiar to the foiler Moth.
Yes, it is a revolution and one that won't be damped by internet absurdity!
What's the truth, anyway?
Geez, Doug, the fouling foil stuff happened, it was openly addressed by Rohan and now you have a panic attack. That's really good form.
This from Rohan's personal account with regards to weeds, bags, etc.:
From Thursday's Race Two: "However the good thing was that I was dragging around some weed for the last lap, so that was now gone and I could concentrate on catching Simon on the last lap. I closed the gap downwind again, but it wasn't enough and came through in 2nd."
Lost Championship points due to weed disrupted foil surfaces.
From Saturday's final heat: "... By this stage I had lost over 100m and Adam was now in front. Then we all tacked on the starboard and that was it. I don't know if it was weed (again) or my wand configuration, but I could not foil at all on that tack..."
Now, this second quote was from what turned out to be the very last race of the event and ultimately decided the whole affair. Up to that point, Payne and Veal were running neck and neck for the title. Rohan ended up in fifth for that heat, lost significant points to Payne due to a malady that he directly addressed as potentially attributable to weeds (again) which vaulted Payne into the overall lead. The rest is history, as they cancelled the next day's racing due to no wind and Payne walked away the new World Champ.
Now, maybe Doug doesn't call that significant, but I do. As has been witnessed by other competitors, as well as directly addressed by Veal, losing the capability to foil on a foiling boat is a death sentence for performance. If it's a racing scenario, then the death sentence ripples down through the rankings as the points slip away from the damaged contender.
In another entry from Rohan's diary. This from the race on Thursday that he won: Of significance was the race result for Payne in that heat, finishing fourth due to weeds on the foil:" ... The winning margin was about 30 seconds or so, with Jason in 2nd, Adam 3rd, and Simon in 4th after snagging some weed on a windward work."
Not significant that the points that Simon lost were crucial to tossing Rohan into the points lead at the end of that day? OK, maybe in some mythology that could be true, but it was real enough for Simon Payne on that day.
Here's the silly bag thing quote by Rohan that got Doug all riled-up:
"In race two, I started mid line with Adam but shortly after crossing the line, I snagged a plastic bag in the water dropping 3 knots of speed instantly. I tacked to starboard to try and clear the bag, but it stayed on. I then tipped the boat over removed it and got going again."
Now, I'm sure this is much to Doug's chagrin, but his glossy reporting in his previous posting is not accurate at all on this matter. Rohan did not get clipped for first right at the line as Doug tells it. The race in which the, so-called, bag incident took place was, in fact, the second of the day and in that race, Rohan finished fourth, not second, as Doug would have you believe. The clipping action at the line was for third place and not first. Again… not very significant to drop into fourth place points due to a plastic bag?
The finishing order from Rohan's site:
Race 2: (the bag race)
1st Simon Payne
2nd Adam May
3rd Jason Belben
4th Rohan Veal
5th Sam Pascoe
So, draw your own conclusions as to how well he may have done without the "bag on the foil" trick right at the start of the race that afternoon.
It's significant that Mr. Lord will alter the reportage to suit his own brand of myth, as he projects it. Makes you wonder how many other little bits of data have been "tweaked" in the past to suit the projected, emotional needs.
As to Doug offering-up excuses for Rohan and his injured knee... please, stop speaking for the guy, Doug. Rohan does a right fine job of it himself. Nobody forced him to go put his butt on the line with an injury. He decided it was good enough to give it a go and the sympathy ends right then and there. He's a professional athlete and he gets to decide if the body part is working well enough to make the appearance. No excuses, no pained expressions, no whining from the sidelines can fix that decision. To offer that excuse for the end result is a dreadful posture of disregard for a superb athlete who knows his body better than do you.
It is now and will remain so, my belief that Rohan's problems with disrupted, weed and plastic bag fouled, foils played a significant part in his placing at the World's this time around.
His knee wasn't a significant part of the deal or he would have been hampered by that issue throughout the event. His showings in several of the heats with first place finishes proves that to be a Red Herring argument put forth by those who would like to redirect the substantive issues away from what they really are. Rohan, himself, actually states that it was his athletic fitness that allowed him to remain in top form all the way through each race, while others dropped positions as the laps wore on.
From Rohan: "It seems as though anyone of the foilers can lead around the course for the first lap, but there are only a few guys that are capable of winning a race after three laps due to the high skill and fitness required to sail these demanding boats."
As has been stated on many occasions prior to this dust-up by such respected members as, Frosh, CT249, Rhough and several others, Doug's overwhelming desire to play hype-meister has far outstripped his ability to either recognize, or render, the truth when making a posting on these pages.
Doug, It seems that the weed WAS a significant problem, and the reportage came from the horse's mouth.
Also there is a huge difference between winning a world title and just missing out. Maybe even sponsorship might be reduced for Rohan.
Doug, be a real man and admit what is obvious to everyone already!
As I pointed out in my original post everybody at the regatta would have been subject to the same "crap in the water" problems as Rohan had to one degree or another. Ostlund tries to use the "crap in the water" argument to knock foilers as a whole; he's done it before and tries again here. Rohan discusses in his writing the factors specific to him in this regatta that he felt affected the result-most important among them was the fact that he couldn't point as high as Simon Payne or sail as fast. He may have also had problems with his wand setup. He discusses his knee which had him in the hospital just before leaving for the worlds and which prevented him from sailing to his maximum: He says:" There I stayed in 5th place cursing myself the whole way to the finish line, unable to manouver the boat as I would have done previously due to my problematic knee to try to claim 3rd or even 4th spot."
Weed etc affected the whole fleet -not just Rohan; his knee and boatspeed were clearly the most serious problems-specific to him- affecting his shot at the World Championship.
Moth's on foils
Chris, Doug, when is this childish fight going to end, and why does it have to spread over more than one thread?
About missing a chance in the Moth world championship because of things spoiling the foiler:
Places 1-15 are occupied by foilers.
Conclusion: If you want to win the Moth championship you will have to use a foil no matter how many disadvantages it has.
well said seaspark
An account from someoneone who was there.
Yes there was weed and a reasonable amount although I was surprised how little I caught. Only twice in 9 races. One bit I carried for some time although it was up near the hull and not in the water and the second time I could feel it vibrating so had a look to see, then twisted the tiller extension so the boat flew higher, then when the boat came down again the weed washed off.
Everybody had to deal with it although overall it was no problem.
Bigger issues were unpredictable gusts which made a huge difference to foiling or not foiling. If a gust went your way then you could make up 2-3 places.
There were plenty of jelly fish too, they slow you down too but do not get stuck of course.
Great fun, looking forwards to the next champs on Lake Garda in less than 12 months with bigger a fleet predicted, hopefully 50 or more.
Nice to have you back
That's all well and good, John, and we all appreciate your first hand report, but it doesn't really address the issue that's being discussed except peripherally.
No disrespect to you, John, for the following comments. I deeply respect your ability to run your design/build business and then compete with truly solid results in your effort in Denmark.
I'm going to address the individual race results and clearly, there are two guys who are decidedly better out on the race course than the rest of the fleet. No doubt that's because of a number of defined reasons as well as all the intangibles of the two guys in question. Not the least of which is these two are heavily sponsored pro sailors wose main objective is to be the best in the world. Ilett, for instance, works his butt off all day building foils, boats and all sorts of other stuff to pay the bills. I could be wrong, but that's a different reality from Payne and Veal.
When you look down the results sheet for each race and follow the numbers as they were posted for both Simon and Rohan, you see a clear and unmistakable pattern emerging that directly correlates with the problems, as I have previously outlined them.
Nobody in the entire fleet managed a first place finish outside of these two principal players. If there were nasty gusting conditions with radical shifts on the course, then these two managed to see it all coming and took immediate and decisive action to adjust for the changes. And they did it like clockwork, up to a point.
In eight races, Payne experienced one finish out of first or second, his worst showing a fourth place in the fifth race of the event.
Veal finshed out of the top two spots twice with a fourth in the 2nd heat and a fifth in the 8th.
When you look at these results and you draw-up the parrallel of serious weed or (in the case of Veal) a bag scenario, where their boats/foils were marginalized due to foreign objects adding drag and or reduced lift, you see a distinct and connected scenario.
Each of the extreme low finishes for each of these two superb sailors is directly related to documented weed fouling and the infamous bag episode. That sort of charted relationship just doesn't suddenly appear out of nowhere without there needing to be a serious consideration as to its connective cause.
After reading all the data, all the reports and applying the most basic of logic paths, there is only one consistently connective explanation for the cause. Fouled foils which both slowed the boats of the two best sailors as well as minimalized the ability of the foils to create enough lift to get the hull clear of the water.
In Rohan's case in the final race, he had to dismount, dislodge the bag and then continue on. In the face of a superb rival with equal abilities, in the form of Simon Payne, this was a knockout punch to his chances for staying in contention in that race.... unless a similar problem emerged for Payne.(which it did not)
I've heard the argument that all the competitors had to deal with the same weedy conditions and so the weed issue is not valid. If that is so, could someone please tell me how each of the worst finishes for these two guys precisely coincided with documented and known weed and/or plastic bag conditions on their foils?
If you have an answer for that and it can hold-up to scrutiny against the known data, then by all means, step forward and lay it on us.
Until then, everything else is a "yeah, but..." type of retort and it holds no water. These boats, probably more so than anything out on the water in racing trim, are exacting developments of science with a bit of the black art of driving thrown-in for good measure. Wouldn't it be appropriate for the analysis of the issue to be about data driven results and not some speculation and iffy conjecture?
I'll make this really clear for anyone who wants to know... again... as to my take on foiling boats of this type. I am not anti-foiling. Never have been, never will be. What I am is a careful examiner of the potential of these boats to break into the mainstream of recreational boating. They are exciting to watch and appear to be a ball of fun in the right conditions and right hands.
In the recent past, they have suffered, in my opinion as well as those of others, from over-hyping and fluffy claims of the coming revolution of popularity. So far, the claims have not materialized, nor do I see that happening in a way that will drive masses of people into boatyards clamoring for the next hot foiler. I wish the genre well and all of those who are busting their butts to produce quality boats with a responsibility to the sport without the excessive burn of maxxed-out claims.
I do insist that the hyperbole folks produce that which they spew about and not the usual vaporware with indeterminate promise in the future. That's called accountability. Make the boats, deliver them at an effective pricepoint and make sure they can be used by the common guy with limited sailing experience. That's what all the rest of the recreational boat designers and builders have to do to survive in this marketplace.
Building limited production racing machines is not the same as the hyped paradigm and never will be. The People's Whatever concept is a light year from reality, if it can ever be done realistically. I haven't seen anything that would make that change, but I'm open to the potential if a few good folks got to work on it. Talking and spewing are not the same thing as hard work and risk.
congratulations for your results in Horsens.
Yesterday we met Rohan in Torbole. He inspected the Circolo Vela Torbole facilities and was indeed very pleased with what he saw. A good 15 knots Ora was blowing and he only regretted not to have a Moth to sail. He agreed that’s not unreasonable to aim for a target of 50 foilers attending the Torbole Worlds.
A nice and friendly guy indeed: the Moth Class seems to attract great people.
IMCA Italy would like to thank the only Italian competing in the Horsens Worlds, Franco Ferluga.
He finished 20th, just behind the French cousin Nicolas Bessec, tied on points.
Being at his very first outing in a Moth regatta, we think he did very well.
See you next year in Torbole.
Doug, you made mention of the manouvre which is peculiar to a foiling Moth; the "upwind gybe". Tell me, do you think that they also favour the "downwind tack"? I can remember doing this in one of my first outings on a Moth when it blew about 25!
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