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  #1  
Old 02-22-2006, 06:26 PM
Doug Lord
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FOILER 1 Grand Prix

Check this out:
Foiler1 GP
Address:http://www.foiler1.com/ Changed:8:43 PM on Wednesday, July 20, 2005
Does anyone know the story behind this site?
-----------------------------------------------
UPDATE2/28/06-the site is maintained by Rohan Veal Moth World Champion and will be updated as time goes on; hopefully it will contain the most information found anywhere on Moth Foiler performance-just known FACTS.
See post #61, page 5 this date for a compendium of what is known at this point about Moth foiler performance.

Last edited by Doug Lord : 02-28-2006 at 09:24 AM.
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  #2  
Old 02-23-2006, 04:06 PM
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Raggi_Thor Raggi_Thor is offline
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I would have to ask you, the foiler expert :-)
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  #3  
Old 02-23-2006, 05:47 PM
Doug Lord
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Gp

Well, I've written the contact address and no response(see update below)
========================
For those that think they might want to consider building a Foiler Moth in the USA see page 5 post # 73.

Last edited by Doug Lord : 03-01-2006 at 06:56 PM. Reason: add info
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  #4  
Old 02-24-2006, 06:24 AM
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Raggi_Thor Raggi_Thor is offline
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Doug, I would like to know more about the balance of a foiler moth.
How does it work in practice?
Probably there is a thread for this already...
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  #5  
Old 02-24-2006, 08:33 AM
Doug Lord
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Foiler 1 Grand Prix

Just got an e-mail from Rohan Veal, World Champion in the foiler Moth. This site belongs to him and the concept is not dead but still being developed.
-----------------------
Raggi, if you're talking about balance in the sense of keeping it upright I've never sailed one but according to those that have the boat is very unstable to start with-takes loads of practice to sail the boat well off the foils. Weight is initially moved aft(to increase foil angle of attack) for the earliest takeoff then as the boat comes up moved forward again-a bit- depending on conditions. Once up the boat is much more stable.The boat is sailed upwind heeled to weather to unload the vertical fin and to increase RM.
Numerous Moth designers and sailors have commented(see UK Moth site) that buoyancy pods would help beginners get started.
Recently Sebastian Josse(Abn Amro VOR) sailed Veal's boat and foiled the very first time-and then was so impressed he bought the boat-see the video on page two of this forum.
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  #6  
Old 02-24-2006, 08:01 PM
Chris Ostlind Chris Ostlind is offline
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Really?

He foiled the first time or he foiled on the first day out? The video clearly shows him trying to get the boat going and it capsizes. Later, apparently, he does get it up on foils.

It ain't that easy and by all accounts, even from experienced, high performance, small boat racing sailors, there's lot's of swimming the first few times on the water.

I love your zeal, Doug.

Chris
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  #7  
Old 02-24-2006, 08:07 PM
Doug Lord
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Josse

As I understand it he foiled fairly shortly after starting. No question buoyancy pods would have made his transition easier.Many Moth experts* are saying that you should plan on sailing a couple of seasons before attempting foiling. I think that's nuts: an equal number of Moth experts(designers, sailors, builders) agree that the pods would make it easier for beginners to get to the good part: foiling!
* edit-superfluous info removed

Last edited by Doug Lord : 02-24-2006 at 08:33 PM. Reason: remove superfluous info
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  #8  
Old 02-25-2006, 12:16 AM
Baronvonrort Baronvonrort is offline
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The pods are not allowed in the Moth class.
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  #9  
Old 02-25-2006, 08:26 AM
Doug Lord
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Pods

Pods aren't allowed for racing according to the class rules BUT nothing says that beginners couldn't use them in non class racing to learn to sail the boat on foils.See the UK Moth website for the comments by several Moth guys regarding the use of pods helping beginners.
There seems to be some enthusiasm for building International Moths in the US(see SA under Dinghy Anarchy:" Moths in the NE USA")-at least two foiler Moths are currently under construction in Florida. What concerns me is that ALL this new Moth enthusiasm is due 100% to the foiler Moth and there are those "experts"(in the Moth class and otherwise) that are telling these guys that they'll have to sail the boat as a seahugger two or three seasons BEFORE they foil. Removable buoyancy pods would allow them to foil on their FIRST day sailing as opposed to waiting a year or so which would build their enthusiasm for the boat and class rather than try their patience.
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  #10  
Old 02-25-2006, 11:37 AM
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usa2 usa2 is offline
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All the pods are going to do is soften a crash(maybe). The reason the "experts" in the Moth class claim a Moth is more stable on foils is because that is relative to sailing one in the water. These Moth sailors have sailed the boats in the water, where they are very unstable, so that when they get the boats foiling, it seems much more stable by comparism. But how stable is a foiler Moth compared to the average dinghy in the U.S?(i.e., 420, Laser, V15, whatever else there is...)

And also, how many of the average sailors would be able to foil the thing without wiping out many times on the first day? Buoyancy pods may do wonders for rolling and broaching, but when you are on foils the main problem is pitchpoling, and that is what is going to happen. Some novice at foiling is going to think they can do it with buoyancy pods, but then they go out and promptly nose down and get catupultped off the stern. Yes, that will definitely build enthusiasm by the sailors for the class.

There is no such thing as instant gratification in the world, so i dont think sailing a moth for one day is going to end up with the sailor foiling perfectly. I would think a month or two might be enough time to get a sailor up on foils, but it is definitely not happening within the first day.
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  #11  
Old 02-25-2006, 06:11 PM
Doug Lord
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Pods

2, the buoyancy pods are designed to help you get to foiling sooner which they will definitely do; they would have no or very limited effect when foiling.
When you've got a bunch of short attention span kids being told it may take "two or three seasons" before they can foil you've got a serious problem. Again, some of the best Moth sailors around think that bouyancy pods could help beginners -I'm convinced they could and speak from some experience: Quite a while ago I designed and built a 14 foot seahugger about two inches wider than a Moth with a bit more sail area that used pods -without them learning the boat would have taken much, much longer-if I didn't just say to hell with it.
Getting foiling at the earliest possible point is the key thing if the excitement generated by foiling is the main motivating factor -which I'm convinced it is.
Moth pods:Is this a trimaran?
http://www.int-moth.org.uk/IsthisamothSP.htm
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  #12  
Old 02-25-2006, 07:25 PM
Chris Ostlind Chris Ostlind is offline
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Ouch!!

No offense, Doug, but when was the last time you pitchpoled your face into a set of wires on your first day out on a new, never been on it, boat? Did you have the sand to get back in the saddle with the red welts still showing?

If you're talking about a serious enthusiast's package, you may have a very good argument for a US version of the Moth. If it's a recreational sailor and their propensity for no-brainer, push-button solutions to everything in their lives, you have a huge chasm to cross.

I've been doing outrigger equipped sailing canoes of my own design for about 5 years now and believe me, it's a very tough argument to even get folks, who are already canoe enthusiasts, into a boat, much less sell them one.

Foiling is very cool to me, but I liken the leap from trad dinghies as I would in getting the driving public to step away from their Accords and into an open wheel sports car.

There will always be a very skinny sliver of boat dudes who will spew for the chance to drive a foiler. Some of the spewers will even spring the cash to own one outright. But the sliver of dudes ain't enough in the numbers column to justify the outlay beyond the novel few who are really into it.

Like I said, I love your energy on the issue.

Chris
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  #13  
Old 02-25-2006, 08:10 PM
Doug Lord
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wires

Well, Chris there's danger everywhere. I've read many a story of begining Moth foiling but haven't heard that one. I've read of guys that thought it was easy to learn to foil and of others that have struggled with it.Most every story reflects the extreme difficulty of learning to sail seahugger Moth. Many of the current short list of monofoilers are self taught with no benefit gleaned from instruction or training by experienced people-no wonder there are so many different impressions of starting out. But those kinds of crashes won't be affected one way or another by buoyancy pods-crashing is always a possibility with some systems and in some conditions. But ,undeniably, pods would help people get to the good part sooner. Moth foilers can take off in relatively light wind and the threshold is getting lighter all the time.Beginners would start in the most favorable foiling conditions to learn in-not crash and burn weather.
My point is that it will be far better in growing foiling to get those interested doing it-first in the easiest conditions- as opposed to having these same people spend lots of time learning to sail a Moth(or other foiler) in seahugging mode with no hope of foiling for several seasons.
A good friend of mine was injured badly on a Hobie cat when taken out by an idiot-you described what happened to her. If people aren't taught well sailing on any high performance boat can be a disaster.
As to what the popularity of foiling will be I think you're way off base but only time will tell. I think with excellent equipment, good instruction and a "Hobie" behind the company a Peoples Foiler could revolutionize the sport of small boat sailing.
I'll repeat this again: monofoiling is in its infancy; there are facets of the sport that have not been explored yet except accidentally-such as jumping.There's a lot of history yet to be written but the Moth started it all and is one way people can get foilng NOW. The Moth thread on SA is the second most popular "Dinghy Anarchy" thread and I believe reflects a tremendous interest in foiling-an interest that will only grow as more people witness the extraordinary performance up close and personal.
You just don't see an 11' monohull that can beat an A Class cat, 49er or match speeds with a 20' Tornado every day-it's just the begining of the revolution...
================================================
From Rohan Veal-see whole article below:
"And from my personal experience there has not been one person so far that has not enjoyed their first sail on a hydrofoiled Moth, could not wipe the smile off their face or has not wanted a second go on one."
Moth Future
http://www.rohanveal.com/articles/foiling_future.html

Last edited by Doug Lord : 02-25-2006 at 09:00 PM. Reason: add info
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  #14  
Old 02-25-2006, 09:01 PM
Chris Ostlind Chris Ostlind is offline
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Well, actually, Doug the reference came from the pages of the site to which you referred us with great enthusiasm.

I tell you what... explain to me how a boat, with an extraordinarily short LOA for its speed potential, can avoid being stuffed and pitchpoled at least once in awhile. When you couple this with your routine claims for extraordinary speed (about which I do not dispute) you have the recipe for a nice set of red welts across your mug, if not more serious impact slamming on other parts of your body, when being tossed at speed into the rigging. It's physics, Doug.

Secondly, what is happening to the boat's COG when it's up on foils? I would just venture to guess, here, that it's seriously being lifted away from the water's surface. Do you suppose, even a little, that a tripped foil, a caught bow surface, a poorly sailed angle into a wave, etc. will cause the mass of the boat, under the speeds you suggest, to rotate forward around the COG in a dramatic fashion?

Thirdly, do you suppose that the novice sailors to whom you want to aim this product, will not be routinely demonstrating this maneuver due to less than accomplished skill sets, poor judgement, recklessness at speed, etc.?

If you have only seen one such incident and it happened on a cat involved in a collision, then you haven't been sailing much on high performance boats. Both of these shortcomings can be corrected with a little more time in the saddle.

The picture attached supports the pitchpole potential and it's probably not unique with just a little more digging in photo archives.

You have placed yourself in a marginalized position as far as a open mind would go, seeing as how you want to market a product with foils. Any and all issues to the contrary for a new boat before it hits the water would be killer bad news to the public's perception, so I do understand the posturing.

You reference SA forums as being popular. Now, I can't speak for you, but my understanding of the SA crowd is that they are exactly the spewers to which I referred in my earlier letter. If you think that size market potential can drive a successful commercial product, then you have more money to give away than I do and I wish you much luck in the enterprise. The marketing budget alone, for a boat of this type, will cost more than the SA crowd can provide in orders. Again, good luck.

Additionally, this quote stands out in support of my argument that it's not a set-it and forget, Ron Popeil of Ronco fame, kind of sailing enterprise. Also, from the pages of the site by none other than Nigel Oswald, as follows:

http://www.int-moth.org.uk/TechniqueSP.htm

"It is likely that you are an experienced sailor already if you want to sail a Moth. You may find the experience intimidating or embarrassing, but stick with it. One of the beauties of the class is that it takes dedication above and beyond most conventional sailing dinghies. This does not appeal to everyone, but to the select few."

Case closed
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  #15  
Old 02-25-2006, 09:02 PM
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usa2 usa2 is offline
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are you going to answer the question posed by myself and Chris about pitchpoling?
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