Flying Canting Keel-Extraordinary Innovation!

[Doug Lord]

Jo Richards and Guy Whitehouse have teamed up to design and build the worlds first canting keel lake racer in which the keel strut and bulb are CLEAR of the water at max RM. The article is in the new Seahorse... http://www.guywhitehouse.com/sail.aspx

[Doug Lord]

This is exciting to me because 3 years ago I conceived of a 90-110 degree canting keel utilizing a circular hull section for the 60' Moth concept. The reason for it was to allow my 60' Moth concept to function at a high level while on foils. What Whitehouse and Richards have done is validate the concept(assuming it actually does work!) and that just increases my belief in the viability of the 60' Moth. Thanks ,guys-great work!



90°-110° Canting Keel

60'+ or - 20' Ocean Racing Monofoiler Design Discussion (second thread)

[Fanie]

It would be interesting to see it work !

[Doug Lord]

Originally Posted by Fanie

It would be interesting to see it work !

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The boat using it is under construction now....

[jonr]

At the point it is horizontal, I believe that it should be called an "outrigger".

[Doug Lord]

Why should it be called an outrigger?

Look at the keel on Wild Oats setting the Sydney-Hobart record in 2005.
Photo by Carlo Borlenghi/Rolex:

[Munter]

An outrigger suggests positive bouyancy to me which seems different to the concept being put forward here.

While it is premature to judge based just on a rendering or two I'm pretty confident that the concept will be a difficult one to take from a 3d rendering to an actual sailing boat.

Getting such a large bearing to work under the dynamic loads experienced by a keel will be difficult. Keeping it working will be another challenge.

I think it will be harder to sail than it looks. For example there will be a big change in righting moment at the point of heeling when the bulb goes from being immersed to airborne. I would expect the keel to create a large amount of drag when it is at the water/air interface. How will the power in the rig be managed to ensure the bulb doesn't just cruise along partially submerged (which I presume to be slow).
Also, the hull design also looks to have relatively little form stability (circular cross section) meaning that once the keel is flying in the air the righting moment will not increase with increasing heel angles (and may actually decrease?). Will they actually be able to sail in a stable configuration with the bulb in the air or will the boat just tip as the righting moment diminishes and there is insufficient form stability to keep the boat upright? It seems like quite a challenge.

Similar to many of your sketches Doug - the design looks like it could work under a specific, constant set of conditions but I think actually getting the design to work in sufficiently wide a range of conditions to make "sailable", even by experienced crews, will take a lot of work.

[Doug Lord]

Excellent points, Munter. Thats part of the reason the 60' Moth was conceived to get most of its RM from on-deck sliding ballast. You're 100% right-if nothing else moves with the keel at max extension RM is likely to go down with heel. I imagine these guys figure that the large lake sailing crew would "adjust" the RM in those circumstances.
I'm certain it will work technically-these guys are really good. Getting used to sailing it will be very involved I'd guess.
At any rate, we should know relatively soon....

[ancient kayaker]

A pivot would be much simpler than the ginormous circular bearing shown. The canting keel is additional to a regular fin keel required to control leeway which appears to be needed for the sole reason that the canting keel can be raised clear of the water.

Oh, wait, let's check the calender! No, it's not April 1st. Could this actually be serious?

[Doug Lord]

Terry, almost every canting keel boat requires additional lateral resistance since the keel strut doesn't do much lifting-none in the case of a CBTF boat. By having the lateral resistance developed by foils other than the keel strut the strut section can be just a streamline section and not a lifting section-at least thats the philosophy of the CBTF people. Even the VO70's use toed in daggerboards one at a time to deliver the required lateral resistance and unload the strut.

[bistros]

Originally Posted by ancient kayaker

A pivot would be much simpler than the ginormous circular bearing shown. The canting keel is additional to a regular fin keel required to control leeway which appears to be needed for the sole reason that the canting keel can be raised clear of the water.

Oh, wait, let's check the calender! No, it's not April 1st. Could this actually be serious?

Sure it could be serious.

European lakes are surrounded by moneyed egos looking to shed excess cash and enhance bragging rights. Look what has happened to the America's Cup. Ernesto anyone?

The resulting yacht(?) may not fit within the traditional definition of a sailboat (mandatory hydraulics, banks of batteries, need for very steady winds, not suitable for seakeeping), but Eurocash dispensing egos aren't all that concerned with what I think a sailboat is.

I don't doubt the designers and builders are capable of producing the boat. It only makes sense that they capitalize on clients willing to pay shedloads of money. It is nicer to work for rich people that pay their bills on time.

I do find it sad that North America's design savant hasn't ventured forth to propose his 60' foot Moth in Europe at the right restobars surrounding Lago della Eurocash. I'm sure he could find backers quickly to make the dream a reality. And then I'd have some apologizing to do!

In jest,

--
Bill

[wet feet]

Jo Richards has produced some innovative boats over the years.The fact that they work as intended seems to assure his clients that it is worth going out on a bit of a limb.His latest National 12 design cleaned up at the 2009 championship and is described here : http://www.cowes.co.uk/zonexml/story?story_id=5509;cp=0 note the size of the foil on the rudder. He was also responsible for the Illusion mini 12 metre and a cluster of other dinghies and multihulls.Its a few years since his first design for the Italian lakes and I suppose the latest endeavour gathers the lessons learned in the process.Looking at the wings,the trimming of the heel angle will still be partly determined by the crew location and you won't be able to sit there like a sack of spuds while the bulb does the work.The unfit need not climb aboard.

[Doug Lord]

Originally Posted by wet feet

Jo Richards has produced some innovative boats over the years.The fact that they work as intended seems to assure his clients that it is worth going out on a bit of a limb.His latest National 12 design cleaned up at the 2009 championship and is described here : http://www.cowes.co.uk/zonexml/story?story_id=5509;cp=0 note the size of the foil on the rudder. He was also responsible for the Illusion mini 12 metre and a cluster of other dinghies and multihulls.Its a few years since his first design for the Italian lakes and I suppose the latest endeavour gathers the lessons learned in the process.Looking at the wings,the trimming of the heel angle will still be partly determined by the crew location and you won't be able to sit there like a sack of spuds while the bulb does the work.The unfit need not climb aboard.

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Thanks wf- that appears to have more span than an I-14 foil-didn't realize he was using it.

[ancient kayaker]

Originally Posted by bistros

Sure it could be serious.

European lakes are surrounded by moneyed egos looking to shed excess cash and enhance bragging rights. Look what has happened to the America's Cup ...

Bill

Bill, that explains some of it, although it doesn't explain how people who are stupid enough to spend money on this had the intelligence to gather enough cash in the first place.

Although you have explained the need, IMHO it is a pointless exibition of technology that fulfills no particular purpose. While not particularly well-versed in boat-related technology, I feel competent to make this judgement as a result of spending a couple of decades both developing and marketing extreme-tech to the technologically unbaptized ... it truly does offend my minimalist instincts. There are so many simpler and safer ways to swing a bit of weight from one side to the other.

[Doug Lord]

Originally Posted by ancient kayaker

Bill, that explains some of it, although it doesn't explain how people who are stupid enough to spend money on this had the intelligence to gather enough cash in the first place.

Although you have explained the need, IMHO it is a pointless exibition of technology that fulfills no particular purpose. While not particularly well-versed in boat-related technology, I feel competent to make this judgement as a result of spending a couple of decades both developing and marketing extreme-tech to the technologically unbaptized ... it truly does offend my minimalist instincts. There are so many simpler and safer ways to swing a bit of weight from one side to the other.

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Terry, thats pretty tough on some very smart and accomplished guys....