first build reccommendations (featherwind)

[J.D.Hogg]

@CutOnce

Might have a couple more questions if you don't mind.

Do you happen to know whether a sail-plan is included in the GIS plans?

[CutOnce]

Originally Posted by J.D.Hogg

@CutOnce

Might have a couple more questions if you don't mind.

Do you happen to know whether a sail-plan is included in the GIS plans?

I've sent a note to Michael Storer regarding your question - I'll post his response as soon as I see it. If he's got time, he may respond directly to the thread.

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CutOnce

[PAR]

The GIS comes as a complete set of plans, including building instructions and epoxy handling tips. Naturally, Michael Storer is the best to tell you about the Goat Island Skiff. Duck Works sells his plans in the USA and their site offers a brief description. http://www.storerboatplans.com/

[CutOnce]

Originally Posted by CutOnce

I've sent a note to Michael Storer regarding your question - I'll post his response as soon as I see it. If he's got time, he may respond directly to the thread.

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CutOnce

From Michael Storer:

The Goat really is aimed at premium materials. It is such a nice boat that the light ply and nice timber is the best way to treat the boat.

This is true of the sails too. I don't expect polytarp to have a good life for a boat with such good performance as the Goat. It would reduce the performance that is so much the idea behind the boat.

However sails are the single most expensive part of the boat so I am sympathetic to those wanting to make their own sails.

I have written an instruction pack on how to make lug sails and produced a set of drawings for the Goat sail. This is a simplified sail with no broadseaming and a simple hem. I suggest instead of polytarp that the builder buys some 4oz dacron and stitches it into a flat panel big enough to cut the sail from. No difficult shaping and sewing - just a flat panel with curved edges.

You can get away with this if you have a loose footed sail to create more draft in the bottom third of the sail.

The attached photo shows the RAID 41 dinghy using sails made in this way. It is hoisted a little too high, but the shape is quite acceptable and because it is in Dacron it will stay that way.

I certainly agree with Michael's thoughts, although if $2-300 less and 10-15 pounds extra weight is the penalty and the difference between building one and getting on the water versus not doing so I'd opt for the cheaper, heavier version. Polytarp sails don't last forever, and don't maintain shape forever, but again you can replace them with Dacron after a season or two when the sailing funds recover and you are back in the game.

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CutOnce

[Doug Lord]

Originally Posted by CutOnce

From Michael Storer:



I certainly agree with Michael's thoughts, although if $2-300 less and 10-15 pounds extra weight is the penalty is the difference between building one and getting on the water versus not doing so I'd opt for the cheaper, heavier version. Polytarp sails don't last forever, and don't maintain shape forever, but again you can replace them with Dacron after a season or two when the sailing funds recover and you are back in the game.

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CutOnce

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I find it amazing that you would go to the trouble of getting Mr. Storer's recomendation and then tell a new person to building to just forget it!

Originally Posted by CutOnce

I've sent a note to Michael Storer regarding your question - I'll post his response as soon as I see it. If he's got time, he may respond directly to the thread.
from Michael Storer:
The Goat really is aimed at premium materials. It is such a nice boat that the light ply and nice timber is the best way to treat the boat.

This is true of the sails too. I don't expect polytarp to have a good life for a boat with such good performance as the Goat. It would reduce the performance that is so much the idea behind the boat.

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CutOnce

[CutOnce]

Originally Posted by Doug Lord

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I find it amazing that you would go to the trouble of getting Mr. Storer's recomendation and then tell a new person to building to just forget it!

Doug:

I'm recommending that people get on the water in boats they build. That's the objective. If compromises have to be made to meet the objective, that's part of the game. I did not say forget Michael's recommendations - I did indicate that people have to objectively evaluate priorities and make reasoned decisions and compromises.

I am NOT surprised you would find actually getting boats built and on the water troubling. I find it amazing that you feel qualified to comment on anyone setting priorities, working to those priorities and completing the tasks to bring the project to timely conclusion. You seem to have some difficulties with these issues yourself.

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CutOnce

[Doug Lord]

Originally Posted by CutOnce

Doug:

I did not say forget Michael's recommendations - I did indicate that people have to objectively evaluate priorities and make reasoned decisions and compromises.

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CutOnce

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You most certainly did tell a newbie to building that it is ok to forget the very direct recommendation that YOU posted from Mr. Storer. Why bother to contact the guy if you are going to throw his recommendations out the window??! I think it is a damn shame for you to set yourself up as some kind of authority on Mr. Storer's design and imply that his recommendations are worthless.
I hope most new builders will realize that it is CRITICAL to take the recommendations of the designer and not some anonymous Internet poster. There can be a lot of considerations to the choice of material including structural that go into the designers recommendation.

[CutOnce]

Doug:

You are turning this nice, positive thread into one of your incredible **** fights for no purpose other than your stalker obsession with pissing in my Corn Flakes at every opportunity. Why don't you have Jeff (the moderator) read this thread and give you his opinion of who is valuable to the site and who isn't living up to the terms and conditions of the site?

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CutOnce

[PAR]

I've read the thread and you both are over reacting to each other, probably from previous open forum shenanigans.

On small craft, particularly those with good preformance levels, good materials are required to insure they preform to expectation or at least close to it. If you build a preformance design with materials half as strong, you can expect failures and it would be strongly advised against, as it usually is here and elsewhere. On larger craft where global implications of materials choices, can be spread out over larger surfaces and more structural elements this is less an issue, though I'm reminded of the Liberty ships of WW II. Who of no real fault of their own material choices, tended to break in half at sea and it was a new technique and engineering solution issue, more then a crappy materials problem.

My point as has been previously noted, is inferior material choices come with the blanket warning of premature failures and less the desirable preformance attributes, but they still are builder's choices, which is the key to the whole debate.

[CutOnce]

Originally Posted by PAR

I've read the thread and you both are over reacting to each other, probably from previous open forum shenanigans.

On small craft, particularly those with good preformance levels, good materials are required to insure they preform to expectation or at least close to it. If you build a preformance design with materials half as strong, you can expect failures and it would be strongly advised against, as it usually is here and elsewhere. On larger craft where global implications of materials choices, can be spread out over larger surfaces and more structural elements this is less an issue, though I'm reminded of the Liberty ships of WW II. Who of no real fault of their own material choices, tended to break in half at sea and it was a new technique and engineering solution issue, more then a crappy materials problem.

My point as has been previously noted, is inferior material choices come with the blanket warning of premature failures and less the desirable preformance attributes, but they still are builder's choices, which is the key to the whole debate.

Agreed.

My point was clear. I agreed with Michael Storer first and foremost. Re-read my post if that wasn't noticed.

I also advocate making choices and tough compromises to get things done. That's reality - especially in today's economy. Gas here is at $1.26 per litre - think more than $5 per gallon! Every trip to the grocery store and paying household bills reminds me that we are not in Dorothy's Kansas of the 1940s any more.

As a designer and builder I'm sure this is a reality you deal with daily. Commissions disappear, great designs don't get attention and people just do not value our skill sets as much. I had a client tell me recently that Doctoral level professionals in my area of specialty are available and willing to work for a fraction of my rates - they just are not here in North America. I have to agree with my client as I have hired engineering staff from less affluent parts of the world specifically because they had experience making $3 microprocessors sing and dance in embedded applications, where a North American graduate engineer would use a $20 microprocessor for the same job because the development process is faster and easier.

It is interesting to be exploring this space where optimal material science choices are in conflict with the economics of production. What exactly is the strength, longevity and performance gap between optimal materials and those available at much less cost? Can boat designers optimize for lower cost materials, acknowledging their pitfalls and designing around them to still arrive at functional, strong and safe designs?

Sailing as a sport and recreation is an easily identifiable guaranteed casualty of tough economic times. If this non-essential activity is to survive and continue it must be able to adapt to the times.

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CutOnce

[J.D.Hogg]

Just wanted to let it be known that I did go with the GIS plans and am making toothpicks out of okoume presently. Wish me luck

[CutOnce]

Originally Posted by J.D.Hogg

Just wanted to let it be known that I did go with the GIS plans and am making toothpicks out of okoume presently. Wish me luck

Wishing you luck!

I think this is a great choice and look forward to you keeping us updated on your progress.

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CutOnce

[Doug Lord]

Originally Posted by J.D.Hogg

Just wanted to let it be known that I did go with the GIS plans and am making toothpicks out of okoume presently. Wish me luck

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Thanks for the update,JD! Good luck and have fun....